source file: mills2.txt Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 20:48:00 -0800 Subject: Mozart and ET?? From: A440A@aol.com Greetings Jonathan; Inre the use of ET in Mozart's lifetime. Interesting viewpoint concerning the evolution of ET, however, after reading the McGeary article, I remain unconvinced of your main points and dates. This follows from several reasonings. 1) > A substantial and important part of >McGeary's argument is devoted to establishing that Kirnberger II never >had the prominence in practice that a few later treatises might >suggest I would agree that the Kirnberger II was not so popular. It would seem that Kirnberger's temperament was touted mainly by his personal supporters, and their agenda is suspect, ( it was not that smooth of a temperament). To some extent, I believe McGeary has drawn his sights on a "straw man". >"equal temperament was in the process of supplanting well-tempered >systems for keyboards in the German-speaking lands during Mozart's >lifetime". It is possible that there were theorists pointing to ET as a superior method of tuning,however,theory and practise are two different things. >From Jorgenson's research, I offer the following quotes from Johann Joseph Loehr's book,> Uber die Scheibler'sche Erfindung uberhaupt und dessen Pianoforte-und Orgel-Stimmung insbesondere< "There never was a man capable of tuning by a ear a pianoforte or an organ so as not to leave some inequality of temperament, and there never will be" and " {Equal Temperament} hitherto has not been possible....Before Mr. Scheibler's invention no such means existed by which even a tolerable equality of temperament could be obtained" This was published in Krefeld in 1836. >you already know the time when Broadwood made the >change). Again, according to Jorgenson, in 1850, ( I think), A.J. Hipkins stated that the best tuners at the Broadwood factory "didn't tune anything like equal temperament" in Germany during the second half of the 18th is because piano >tuning had largely become a task of professionals by the time of the >French/English changes, whereas many or most players were capable of >tuning their own pianos at the time the changes occured in Germany. Am >I right? Yes, but that doesn't mean that they were using ET, which is about the most difficult temperament to tune. There were much easier ways to tune a non-restrictive temperament. There is no evidence that there was knowledge of testintervals in the 1700's. Without the normal tests for interval width, I would not be able to tune an acceptable ET today, and I have been tuning ET for the last 20 years at recording and broadcast standards. I don't think ET was possible, given the state of science in the 1700's. ( Mersenne ratios didn't give much information that was of any use to piano tuning, did he?) > Beethoven's well-known pronouncements on key > characteristics should not be taken to imply that he preferred some >variety of well-temperament, because he is also on record as claiming >that he could distinguish between C# major and Db major (!), which, I >need hardly say, is not a distinction that can be made in any >well-temperament. Hmmmm. Is this a distinction that can be made in ET? I am not sure by what mechanism this last statement is supposed to support either direction. >I would accept that Beethoven's notions concerning >key characteristics originated in part from the well-temperament that >he must have been familiar with in his youth, but if the connection >between the two had been of great importance to him, we should expect >him to have made statements on the lamentable erosion of key >characteristics through the adoption of equal temperament This seems to beg the question. If, in fact, there was no ET actually being tuned, he would have made no statements about the erosion. These are all academic points, There is very little hope of arriving at a definitive answer, However, There is another compelling reason to doubt that Mozart and Beethoven composed their keyboard work on equally tempered pianos. To investigate their music, one should play it in ET and well temperament, side by side, and compare. I am presently working with several artists that are intimately familiar with this music. When I introduced them to Well temperament, the one common response I got from them is that the music of the classical Germans makes a lot more sense when played in well temperament. I prefer the Young or Prinz temperaments for the modern pianos, as the greatly increased overtones renders many of the other well temps to be harsh when more than three accidentals are involved. Given the ineffable quality of dissonance forming musical contrasts, talk will only go so far, it is the ear that must decide. To that end, I can only say that presently in the works is a CD of historical tunings on the modern concert grand. The record company has requested that I not divulge exactly what, yet, but this list will be the first place I will notify when given the go-ahead. Regards, Ed Foote Precision Piano Works Nashville, Tn. Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Sat, 1 Mar 1997 16:27 +0100 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA01331; Sat, 1 Mar 1997 16:27:51 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA01425 Received: from by ella.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI) id HAA13347; Sat, 1 Mar 1997 07:25:16 -0800 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 07:25:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199703011523.HAA13313@ella.mills.edu> Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@ella.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@ella.mills.edu