source file: mills2.txt Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:46:47 -0800 Subject: Unsent replies From: John Chalmers I've just discovered that my ISP misconfigured PINE and that none of my email has actually been sent for most of the last week. This is an old post, sorry for the delay, but it's Deltanet's fault. My remarks about humans being lousy antennae referred to EMF fields though the idea may be metaphorically extended to other alleged, but IMO illusory, "energies" for which I see no real evidence. Even if one "tuned" the associated mental "circuitry," humans would still be lousy antennae for physical reasons. As for the "organizing field" returning to the Creator, I think it equally possible that it just dissipates. However, I don't really think there is an organizing field around human bodies, even metaphorically. That doesn't rule out some sort of afterlife; some theologies believe that while humans do not have souls during or before life, they are perfectly "remembered" by "God" after death and thus have an existence in His/Her/Its mind. Frank Tipler has given this idea a technological twist in his book "The Physics of Immortality," in which God is replaced by a giant computer capable of simulating/emulating every sentient being who has ever existed. However, Tipler's argument is based on some speculative ideas about the fate of the universe and whether the re-collapse can generate an infinite amount of energy to run and organize the computer which some future race has to build. Tipler's theophysics does have the virtue that in principle it is testable by observation and measurement. If the present day universe does not have certain measurable properties, the type of physical evolution necessary for his argument is impossible. Andrew: What does NPD 36 stand for (in English as well as Polish)? Has Tomasz composed any music in this system? Why did he decide on the cycle of 1152/octave? I understand 768 because that is the resolution of many synthesizers. Jonathan W: I'm glad to find out what these functions are really called. What I meant was that the prime nomenclature is to be used by default and the odd descriptor added when context is not clear. If I were writting about Partch and said "9-limit," I think my meaning would be clear. There is a problem with skipped factors, but I think a minor one. If we need to be precise, one could use something like Erv Wilson's notation, e.g.," the 2)4 [1.3.5.7] hexany" for the six-tone set generated from the factors 1,3,5 and 7 taken 2 at a time. Perhaps commas might be used instead to separate factors and subharmonic relations indicated by a preposed - or /. Or, as you suggest, the Euler exponential form with positive and negative exponents. I think both prime and odd number limits have musical meaning. In a chord such as the 5:7:9 triads studied by Max Matthews, Linda Roberts and John Pierce, the 9 does not function as 3^2 and similarly in other triads such as 7:9:11 (used by Partch), and 9:11:13. Even in the dom major 9th formation 4:5:6:7:9, I'm not sure that the 9 is heard necessarily as the fifth of 6. Doty reports that the ratio 9/4 is at least a quasi-consonance or "special relation" in his JI primer. Hence, I think at least some composite odd numbers have a meaning beyond their factors. Kathleen Schlesinger's harmoniai included one with a modal determinant of 18 and possibly also ones 15 and 21 as variants of 16 and 22. Whatever the historical status of her theories, the scales themselves are fascinating. Johnny: One could describe oneself as simply "agnostic," at least in informal conversation. The term, unfortunately, is has some ambiguity as it may mean that the person doesn't know and/or additionally that the subject or answer is unknowable. Damien: I don't wish to deny your own very meaningful personal experiences, if I understand your post, but the earth truly is round and does orbit the sun (actually the solar barycenter) and I fail to see how denying these facts enriches one's spiritual life. If one truly needs astrology to have a meaningful life, there are heliocentric versions, ones with 13 house zodiacs which include the constellation Ophiuchus, and practitioners who use the positions of Chiron, the major asteroids, and the outer planets not known in classical times. I would not be surprised if versions including the recently discovered extra-solar planets do not appear soon. Frankly, just because something is old doesn't make it right. Astrology developed during Hellenistic times largely on the basis of earlier Babylonian astronomy and only makes sense if one believed that the planets are gods. Since we now know that they are material bodies, this justification is removed. There are other problems with Hellenistic astrology unrelated to geocentrism and pagan theology. The equinoxes have precessed about 30 degrees since Ptolemy's time and not all astrologers have updated their doctrines. Contrary to classical astrology, the Counter-Earth (Antichthon) does not exist -- computations have shown that it would measurably perturb Mars and Venus and would itself become visible in less than a century. Direct photography of the planets by earth-based and satellite telescopes have not shown it either, in conflict with Orfeo Angelucci's claims for "Clarion. " I know of no evidence for astrology that is dated to 4000 BCE or anything else. Literacy starts in the Near East sometime around 3200 BCE, slightly later in Egypt. I'm sorry to have to say so, but synchronicity is intellectually empty. "Meaningful coincidences" are only recognized post-hoc and the criteria are entirely subjective. There is no evidence whatsover for "racial memory, "collective unconscious," and other similar ideas attributed (correctly or not) to Jung. However, not all of Jung's work is nonsense -- his "archetypes" may have some existence as reflections of the "wiring" of the nervous system and its pattern recognition algorithms. Jim: All languages have onomatopoeic words which do not necessarily obey the regular rules of sound changes or sound patterns. English is comparatively rich in "phonesthemes," segments of words with similar meaning and sound (fl in words like flame, flicker, flash, flimmer; sp in splash, spray, sprinkle, etc.). While in general the relation between sound and meaning is arbitrary, there is some sound symbolism in most, if not all, languages. While superficially very different, there are universals of language due to common properties of the human nervous system as well as invariants in the environment. It is probable that language has evolved only once and that all human languages are genetically related, though the time depth is large that reconstruction of the primordial "proto-Earth" is most likely impossible. Most linguists feel that 10 Kyears is too long. Resemblances across languages may be due to descent, borrowing, independent invention or imitation. I don't find this very surprising or mysterious, though highly interesting. Since most speech sounds have harmonic partials, It is not surprising that we may prefer harmonic timbres and intervals. Similarly, our nervous system has a characteristic time constant, our hearing a certain frequency sensitivity, our heart beat a fairly narrow range of rates, etc., so I'm not surprised at musical similarities across cultures, save perhaps for our own which seems the most deviant of all to me. What other culture deliberatively writes unsingable melodies, uses unplayable (and undanceable) rhythms, and specifies unnatural intervals? What is remarkable is that we can learn to enjoy them . Bruce: Could you give some examples of mystical givens in science? I'll stipulate that I, you, and the rest of the universe exist and neither it or we are entirely irrational and chaotic.... John Starrett: While quantum mechanics does suggest "action at a distance," the effects are severely limited by decoherence which destroys non-local correlations, save in laboratory experiments. The probabilities for "tunnelling" on the macroscopic scale are miniscule. As for dynamical systems, perturbations, attractors, etc., first one must show that the dynamical system exists. An arbitrary set of phenomena does not a dynamical system make (see the above on synchronicity). (I believe it was Gerry Balzano who said this of spectra in reference to timbres for electronic music.) However, I strongly agree with your last statement about music of the spheres. If someone writes it, I will listen. --John Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:07 +0100 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA13577; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:07:55 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA13578 Received: from by ella.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI) id KAA12485; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:05:40 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:05:40 -0800 Message-Id: <199703241803.SAA24426@chiswick.globalnet.co.uk> Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@ella.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@ella.mills.edu