source file: mills2.txt Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:06:38 +0200 Subject: Re: Temperaments/tyros/neophytes From: "Collins, Gordon" Thank you, Ed Foote, for your description of your tuning class. It expands on my point that Western classical music is not based on 12TET. So many posts on the list assume that getting away from 12TET requires getting away from that music. When are you releasing your Beethoven in the Temperaments CD? In early-music concerts, it is customary to identify in the program notes the keyboard instruments that are used (who built them, where, and when). Perhaps it would help the "temperament crusade" to identify the temperaments as well (and not just for the keyboards, come to think of it). It would encourage the audience to think about them and listen for the differences. I certainly agree that the thing to do is to take music that people already know and enjoy and present it in other tunings - especially when the pieces sound so much better that way! A couple of specific comments: You wrote: >I have never heard a string >quartet play in 12 TET. They often say that is what they are doing, but they >always fall into a more tonally centered Pythagorean as they play. Who is >going to accept a constant 14 cent wide major3rd everwhere, in all keys, in a >string quartet? Anyone who hears it played with such wide vibrato that they can't tell how wide the 3rds are. Is it just coincidence that the more prevalent 12TET has become the more string players and singers have used vibrato? Also, the same people will accept such thirds as will accept chamber music with piano and strings, using an equally-tempered piano. In this case, either 1) the strings match the piano and the audience finds those 14 cent wide 3rds just fine, or 2) the strings continue to play with more pure intervals (compared to each other) and the audience doesn't notice that they're not in tune with the piano. In concerts that have pieces both for strings alone and for strings with piano, I have never heard the audience talking about the temperament(s) used. I don't think most of them listen closely enough (or know what to listen for) to tell the difference. Change the phrasing, though, and the audience will notice. But you do seem to agree that even the performers don't realize they're not playing in 12TET. >I think it is easier to decide on a musically proper temperament for >Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etal. than it is to find agreement on phrasing. > There are a limited number of temperaments that would have had been >available. Most of them have been written down, debated, buttressed and >supported,etc, and since the common forms were near universally shared, with >listening, one can usually find the temperament [...] that works best.... I agree that it is not difficult to determine a musically appropriate temperament, but "works best" and "intended" are quite different things. Just to mention a couple examples, what temperament did Bach intend for the WTC, and what did John Bull intend for his Hexachord Fantasia? Gordon Collins Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:04 +0200 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA28229; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:04:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:04:51 +0200 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA28237 Received: (qmail 14173 invoked from network); 20 Jun 1997 15:04:43 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 20 Jun 1997 15:04:43 -0000 Message-Id: Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu