source file: mills3.txt Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:42:16 +0200 Subject: Re: Srutis From: gbreed@cix.compulink.co.uk (Graham Breed) Bill Alves wrote: > The first known Indian treatise to describe the octave divided into 22 > srutis is the Natyasastra of Bharata. Estimates of its date range from the > 5th century BC to the 4th century AD. I tend to trust Jairazbhoy, who > estimates that it comes from the "first few centuries AD." Bharata > discusses two grama, or scale-types: Sa-grama -- 4 3 2 4 4 3 2 -- and > Ma-grama -- 4 3 4 2 4 3 2. He does not discuss their precise tuning. Thanks, 4th century is very early. I'm convinced that these scales are an attempt to describe diatonic scales with a major tone as 4 steps, a minor tone as 3 steps and a diatonic semitone as 2 steps. I think it is quite plausible that an Indian musician could have set up a scale with 22 perceptually equal steps, and compared it with tunings in use at the time. That there are two different tones in the scales means this can't be an attempt to describe a negative meantone. It could well imply triadic harmony using small integer ratios. Incidentally, I had Ma-grama as 4 3 2 4 3 4 2. Apologies to anyone who received perplexing e-mails from me based on this error. I won't go into my historical theories in detail today, but I am interested in exactly where the major scale came from. The usual explanation is that it originated in Europe, based on Ancient Greek ideas. This evidence appears to totally contradict that. It's absolute dynamite! Paul Erlich wrote: > Certainly the evidence suggests that India achieved the 5-limit > before the West. Does "the West" include Greece and Byzantium here? Xenakis describes Byzantine tetrachords in terms of 7-limit frequency ratios, but I don't know how reliable his sources are. Every now and then, discussions of Ancient Greek music arise on the list, but they are too detailed for me to draw general conclusions from them. I expect coverage of this in the FAQ we've been promised. SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu From: gbreed@cix.compulink.co.uk Subject: Reply to Paul Erlich PostedDate: 27-08-97 19:41:19 SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu $UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH RouteTimes: 28-08-97 10:21:36-28-08-97 10:21:38,28-08-97 10:19:10-28-08-97 10:19:11 DeliveredDate: 28-08-97 10:19:11 Categories: $Revisions: Received: from ns.ezh.nl by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) with SMTP id C1256501.002DD356; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:20:32 +0200 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA02478; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:41:19 +0200 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:41:19 +0200 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA02476 Received: (qmail 6567 invoked from network); 27 Aug 1997 17:41:15 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 27 Aug 1997 17:41:15 -0000 Message-Id: Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu