source file: mills3.txt Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:54:28 +0200 Subject: Re: pop in microtones From: Johnny Reinhard On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Jonathan M. Szanto wrote: > Wellllll, this was too delicious to let go... > > >Perhaps microtones is -- and has already been -- part and parcel of pop. > >Without getting too specific at first about what _pop_ is, comtemplate the > >following if you will. > > Since the whole thread revolved around *pop*, it doesn't seem relevant to > avoid the issue of what pop is, but let that lie for a second. The big > point was about microtonal pop as a mainstream phenomena. Most of Johnny's > rationale *seems* to stem from microtonal inflections occurring in > otherwise 12tet musics. I say seems, since his presentation is in > generalities, not specifics. God is in the details... Jon has always had a rejoinder waiting around the corner for me. Sometimes when I read his responses to my posts I begin to think I'm a different person, but only for a moment . He is so persuasive...and funny. I am determined to address his points and to avoid a flame at all costs. Oh, I don't believe in God, but I do believe in details. > >Blues, heavy metal, rap, and much of music for commercials (unusual > >music needed for quick sell). > > Oh yeah? Just when did Taylor/Fender/Other start mass-producing non12tet > guitars? "much" of music for commercials? It has been described that jazz uses sharp sharps and flat flats, but blues have organic microtones. Great blues artists are on record for avoiding the piano because they would be inhibited intonationally by the inflexible pitch of the piano (e.g. Robert Johnson). Most of my post involves determinations by ear, since scores and theory are unavailable (or undesired). Rap often uses a keyboard in 1/8th tones (even En Vogue sings in 1/8th tones in You're Never Gonna Get It.) And the guitars get pitches/intervals in lots of ways other than refrettings. Whammy-bars, restringings, scalloping between frets, studio effects and manipulations are the tip of an iceberg. (Yes, I'm optomistic.) > >Beach Boys and Pink Floyd are regularly in just intonation. Whitney > >Houston and Albert King and Odetta and Louis Armstrong are regular > >practitioners of microtones. > > Come on, Johnny, at least give examples! I could agree that the BB's choral > harmonies were probably altered to be more in tune -- but what about the > Farfiza/Vox/Other organs that they were playing (and gtrs, etc.)? Don't > tell me Whitney has explicitly equipped her bands with Ensoniq gear, tuned > to some slendro scale! So many exclamations above. Please don't reduce what I am saying to farce. While one always tunes to the instrument present that is most inflexible to pitch, singers and wind players and fretless players are never obliged to play only those set "ghetto" pitches. Even slendro allows for extra notes to its basic 5! The piano is a 19th century instrument, after all. As a bassoonist playing regularly to Pink Floyd, I normally used just thirds in order to harmonize along. This is quite recognizeable to me since I need to used my "special" fingerings in order to be in tune. Miles Davis recordings likewise use microtones throughout, but usually from a modal perspective where different fingerings are utilized. I guess your reactions mean that you accept the microtonality of Odetta (she does) or of Louis Armstrong (analyzed microtonally by Ezra Sims) or Albert King (known for his emphasis of the 13th harmonic). How about the comma in the melody of Sinead O'Connor's Compare? > >Globalization of world music brings in the microtonal musics of Bulgaria, > >Egypt, India, Indonesia, et al. > > Sure does, and I love it. Notice how much it changed Michael Bolton, Kenny > G. and Aerosmith? Not to mention the Spice Girls... I believe there a smile on your face, Jon when you say much of this, only because of past exchanges. Michael Bolton sings his share of microtones. Kenny G plays them. Maybe there's more in others yet unmentioned. The important thing here -- at least to me -- is that there is a soup of interval useage out there in the real world of music, and that includes pop. (See a new article in an upcoming Whole Earth Magazine issue on microtonal music mainstreaming of my authorship...and they called me!) > >The pedigree of Charles Ives for theory, intentioin, and compositions > >leads to microtone useage by composers Aaron Copland, Bela Bartok, Pierre > >Boulez, Gyorgy Liggeti, Krzysztof Penderecki, et al. > Pop musicians use the history of music as a jumping off point to further reaches and even legitimitization of techniques. The above gentleman helped secure the use of microtones. Didn't you know that the Grateful Dead listened to Ives #4 before each live performance during an entire year? Or that they were financial supporters to the premiere of the Ives Universe Symphony? > Aaron Copland, microtonalist? Wow. That's like saying "Harry Partch, > champion body-surfer"! Copland used quartertones in some of his music and is thus listed in numerous reference books. These works include Dance Symphony, Ukele Serenade, and Vitebsk. The Copland Performance Fund has been a supporter of the AFMM since its inception several years back, incidentally. > >Right now in New York, microtones are mainstream. > > We are talking about the occurring sounds emanating from the squeals of > taxi brakes, no? (Wait, they use their horns, not their brakes...). Being > an out-of-towner, I can only keep up by reading the concert schedule in the > "New Yorker", and the occaisional Village Voice. Nope -- looks like pretty > much the old guard is still in charge. Please let us know (other than the > AFMM festival and the odd Newband concerts) what constitutes "mainstream". The almost pop John Cage loved the sounds you are teasing about. His _Ten_ is in 74ET and is 30 minutes long for 10 players and it sounds like NYC traffic. More specifically to your question: Kyle Gann is a microtonalist critic for The Village Voice and regularly supports and encourages tiny tone touching. John Schaefer is station manager of WNYC the now-independent important radio station with the award winning New Sounds show, which he hosts and sends off to NPR...and a microtonal music enthusiast. WKCR has always had microtonal emphasis since my involvement in 1981 and that of other key people (Frank Oteri, Charles Passy, etc.) The New York Times regularly features positive reviews about microtonal groups and events (I blush at the exposure) and recall the moving on of microtonal ethusiast critic Robert Palmer. And there are others like Roulette (run by microtonal composer David Weinstein), the Kitchen (run by music curator and microtonalist Ben Neill), or microtonalist Phill Niblock's series. These people have been in place way over a decade. > >Denver, Boston, San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and other cities > >provide microtonal institutions. > > I will speak only to the middle one: hogwash. There is no microtonal > institution here in San Diego, at least one that has *any* consequence on > the populace of the locality, much less a wider influence. If you mean the > Interval Foundation (if that is the name of Jonathan Glasier's > group/coalition), then I respectfully report that it is in name only: I > have seen just one concert, quite a few months back, there is no > 'institution', and the quality of the music-making is not sufficiently > breath-taking. The name Harry Partch is etched in many minds as having been an institution of San Diego. How it is manifested since is another issue. Interval, however, was very important for over a decade in providing valuable information on microtonal music for over a decade. I'm sorry to hear that things have fallen into a shabby state in San Diego. Incidentally, Ivor Darreg was a one-man-institution if there ever was one in San Diego and it is due to his Xenharmonicon that much of tuning theory and early obscure writers on the subject from other lands first received American exposure. > >Time to stopping looking into the books and smell the coffee. Microtones > >are here to stay. :) > > Boy, I thought the Nu Yawk coffee was stronger than that. > Look, I'm happy to see enthusiasm for any niche item, because through that > infectious verve people will be, if not converted, pleased, enlightened and > (dare I say it) entertained. Boosterism doesn't do anyone any good when it > is completely at odds with reality. Neil has the right idea: write good > (ooops, 'killer') music, play it well, record and distribute it > methodically and it will spread -- slowly. Then again, I was the one that > predicted the long curve. Jon, Neil's idea is my idea, and everyone in the pop world's idea. We all write killer music and distribute the gems far and wide. Got it. It is unneccessary, however, to ignore the music in our envirnoment right now. I have described the NYC sound scene in more detail. Understandably, each location will have different input. How about everyone, what positives are there to report across the U.S. and in Europe (Paris, Amsterdam,...) Johnny Reinhard reinhard@idt.net SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu From: nowitzky@pacificnet.net Subject: Anti-twelfth-root-of-two club PostedDate: 22-09-97 18:25:53 SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu $UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH RouteTimes: 22-09-97 18:25:44-22-09-97 18:25:45,22-09-97 18:24:52-22-09-97 18:24:53 DeliveredDate: 22-09-97 18:24:53 Categories: $Revisions: Received: from ns.ezh.nl by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) with SMTP id C125651A.005A3A95; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:25:32 +0200 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA04408; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:25:53 +0200 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:25:53 +0200 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA04410 Received: (qmail 14174 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1997 16:24:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 22 Sep 1997 16:24:26 -0000 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970922091520.30f74a48@pacificnet.net> Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu