source file: mills3.txt Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:14:33 +0100 Subject: chestnuts From: A440A@aol.com >The Bach "chestnut," as Reinhard said, is rather enduring, it seems. Somewhere, in a cyber-corner of space, a motley crew of harmonic hobos gather around the warm ,glowing list with the low flames and alluring coals. They begin to hammer once again on the chestnut.............. Neil starts it: (:)}} >It >also seems that tunings were in a much less settled state at that time >than they are now, with well temperaments, meantone, equal temps, >and most likely others, I agree. with one obsessive/compulsive flag. It is very difficult to believe that ET was tuned on a keyboard before 1830. I say this because I know how hard it is to tune ET today, with all the checks and balances that were perfected in the late 1800's. According to the research done by Barbour and Jorgensen, there was no evidence of the tools necessary to tune ET being used before that time. I would defy anyone to aurally tune a temperament on a piano, harpsichord, or clavichordy today that is equal without the use of the thirds as measurment intervals. I can't do it, and I am real familiar with 12 TET. You simply cannot tune ET on a strung keyboard using fifths and octaves. The M3-min3 and M3-sixth tests are needed. The M3rd/sixth test is also useful for testing the widths of fourths, ( and will actually tune a guitar in very close ET if you know how to count the beats at the G-B third). Hipkins tells us that ET was nowhere near practised at the Broadwood factory in 1848, by the best tuners there !! >From Jorgensen, we read that Mersenne himself said that the ratios for ET he is credited with publishing (1635?) could not be used in tuning a clavier. Organs, which could sustain a long enough tone to count the beats, could be tuned in ET, but nobody seemed to like it. Lutes, with linear placement of the frets rendering any mathematically described temperament possible, were perhaps the first truly equally tempered Western instrument, along with the viols. >also know that Handel had a keyboard with, I believe, 16 tones/octave...was >this a common practice then? The physical limitations of the human hand seem to have limited the number of keys for ordinary use. There have been many versions of more than 12 tried, but none seem to have been accepted for long. > Mself, I believe that Bach, and most likely many others, used various >tunings, depending on the context of the piece, and the instrumentation. >Bach was nothing if not very practical, so to think that he would switch >between systems is not too farfetched. As to what he would have ideally >preferred, are there any writings on this subject? I remember reading that he could retune his clavier in 15 minutes, I suspect that refers to changing the enharmonic notes. Also I remember a quote from one of Bach's sons, stating that the old man would not have preferred ET. This is somewhat hazy, as the smouldering coals get raked, there is a chestnut in here, I just know it........ Best regards and abcdefghijkmnopqrstuwxyz (No L) to all. Ed Foote SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu From: A440A Subject: what "well temperament" means PostedDate: 05-12-97 04:17:41 SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu $MessageStorage: 0 $UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH RouteTimes: 05-12-97 04:15:53-05-12-97 04:15:54,05-12-97 04:15:45-05-12-97 04:15:46 DeliveredDate: 05-12-97 04:15:46 Categories: $Revisions: Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C1256564.0011ED83; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:15:49 +0100 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA06635; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:17:41 +0100 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:17:41 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA06631 Received: (qmail 23598 invoked from network); 4 Dec 1997 19:17:39 -0800 Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 4 Dec 1997 19:17:39 -0800 Message-Id: Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu