source file: mills3.txt Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:06:57 +0100 Subject: re:Chestnut help From: alves@orion.ac.hmc.edu (Bill Alves) > Then again, best I can remember, keyboards playing with fretted strings >was, and still is, a comparatively unusual scenario (in the classical-music >tradition that is - it is of course fairly common in modern-day popular >music). I don't think this is necessarily true. The archlute or theorbo were common bass continuo instruments and thus were often paired with a harpsichord. But in regards to this question and Neil Haverstick's original question about Bach jamming with Weiss, let's do a brief reality check. Given what we know about tuning practices of the time, which did not include counting beats, as Ed Foote reminds us, there was undoubtedly a significant margin of error for any tuning, let alone some circulating temperament with no pure intervals other than the octave. Leaving aside the special case of the organ, these were workaday musicians who probably "touched up" the tuning of their harpsichords pretty much every day. I can tell you from experience that you're not going to spend 45 minutes every day getting every interval at the top end of the keyboard exact (if indeed that were possible). The story that Bach could tune his harpsichord in 15 minutes is thus completely believable though still impressive. Now, the difference between pure and ET thirds is about 15 cents. If you consider that most thirds in most temperaments of the period are going to be compromised in the direction of ET, they are going to be frequently in the range of 5 to 10 cents away. In a treble register, this is within the margin of error of even good singers, fretless strings, and woodwinds. (Remember that these are not modern woodwinds, either.) The margin of error grows, of course, with the size of the ensemble and speed of the piece. (By the way, the seeming beat-spotlighting character of the long consonances in slow movements is mostly an illusion: performers at that time would improvise filler and ornaments in such occasions.) In this context, the practical differences between temperaments like some of Neidhardt's and Marpurg's and ET are angels dancing on the head of pin. This is not to say that temperament was not important to Bach or that he couldn't hear the difference, but that it is a matter of degree of acceptability in practical music making. If I had been present when he and Weiss jammed, I'm sure that, in the wonder of the music of the moment, a few acoustical beats here or there would probably be the last thing on my mind. Bill ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^ ^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^ ^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^ ^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu From: Pat Missin Subject: Tuning program PostedDate: 10-12-97 21:45:12 SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu $MessageStorage: 0 $UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH RouteTimes: 10-12-97 21:43:19-10-12-97 21:43:19,10-12-97 21:43:05-10-12-97 21:43:05 DeliveredDate: 10-12-97 21:43:05 Categories: $Revisions: Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C1256569.0071D16C; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:45:08 +0100 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA11975; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:45:12 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:45:12 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA11971 Received: (qmail 27091 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1997 12:45:09 -0800 Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Dec 1997 12:45:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19971209224101.294f5626@mail.globalnet.co.uk> Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu