source file: mills3.txt Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:07:37 +0100 Subject: Reply to Gregg Gibson From: "Paul H. Erlich" >>Nevertheless >>most researchers have found Arab singers quite unable to reliably >>reproduce these very narrow intervals, much less anything so esoteric as >>the neutral third, which usually amounts to nothing more than a slightly >>inaccurate minor third. > >That is pure hogwash. You obviously have not listened to much Arabic music >with a sensitive ear. You should be more respectful of the world's musical >cultures that to toss out anything that does not fit your preconceptions. >There are Arabic scales whose aesthetic effect lies in the division of the >octave into 3 large and 4 small intervals, unlike the usual 5 large and 2 >small. The performance of these scales by singers and other instrumentalists >is no less accurate than the typical Western classical performance. I'd love >to see your reaction to Gamelan scales! > >>The >>second defect of the 22-tone equal involves its failure to close the >>cycle of fifths. > >19-tone closes the cycle of fifths after 19 fifths. 22-tone closes after 22 >fifths. > >Of course, you probably don't mean the failure to close the cycle of fifths >at all, you probably mean the failure of three fifths (minus an octave) to >approximate a 5:3 major sixth, and of four fifths (minus two octaves) to >approximate a 5:4 major third. In other words, you mean the non-vanishing of >the syntonic comma. > >> I am aware that some will say to themselves - so what? >>But a musical system that does not close the cycle of fifths has at a >>stroke isolated itself from 99% of the music not merely of the western >>19th century, but from virtually the whole of the western tradition, > >If we substitute "the non-vanishing of the syntonic comma" for "non-closing >of the cycle of fifths" above, you are correct. However, 19th century >composers such as Schubert rely on other properties of 12-tone tuning, such >as the "closing of the cycle of major thirds" (really the vanishing of the >diesis) that make 19-tone unusable for this music. > >>and >>from many other musical traditions as well. > >Care to give an example? > >>Such musical systems, like >>just intonation, are mere curiosities, and are far more impoverished in >>usable, aurally distinct resources even than the 12-tone equal. > >You are calling Turkish, Hindu, and many other musics "impoverished." They >often sound so to Western ears, but the riches lie deeply buried and require >an open mind to begin to appreciate. > >>The four scales I gave have consonant triads (major or minor) available >>on four of their seven degrees. For example: > >>C D E F G Ab B > >>has consonant triads on C, E, F & G, but not on D, Ab or B. I hope this >>clarifies the matter. > >This is an important fact that I use all the time in 12-tone. What does >19-tone add to these scales besides a bit of smoothness to the harmony? > >>Your refer to the 7 and 11 limits. The latter is a mere fantasm of the >>just intonationists, and is not audible to the ear as anything other >>than dissonance. > >How insulting! Your ear, perhaps. You are negating the testimony of Partch >and others, including my own experience. > >>The septimal limit is more interesting. But it is >>dissonant, however this may trouble those who aspire to forever extend >>the boundaries of consonance, until someday I presume, we shall find >>everything consonant, and music need trouble itself no longer with any >>rules or constraints whatever... > >That day has already passed, in case you didn't notice... > >>Your reference to individuals being trained to reliably distinguish >>melodic intervals as close as 10 cents is the most fantastic piece of >>information I have ever been privileged to encounter. > >A tenth of a tone is 20 cents, but no matter. Intervals of this order of >magnitude are used in speech, are reliably detected and impart meaning. > SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu From: "Paul H. Erlich" Subject: Escaping the diatonic hegemony PostedDate: 11-12-97 00:35:12 SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu $MessageStorage: 0 $UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH RouteTimes: 11-12-97 00:33:15-11-12-97 00:33:15,11-12-97 00:33:00-11-12-97 00:33:01 DeliveredDate: 11-12-97 00:33:01 Categories: $Revisions: Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C1256569.008161CD; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:35:08 +0100 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA12158; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:35:12 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:35:12 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA12156 Received: (qmail 16613 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1997 15:35:01 -0800 Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Dec 1997 15:35:01 -0800 Message-Id: Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu