source file: mills3.txt Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:03:57 +0100 Subject: Re: TUNING digest 1263 From: alves@orion.ac.hmc.edu (Bill Alves) > > (By the way, the seeming beat-spotlighting character of the long consonances >>in slow movements is mostly an illusion: performers at that time would >>improvise filler and ornaments in such occasions.) > On the keyboard sonatas? I really don't agree there, as the development I wasn't really talking about keyboard music, but if you want to get into specifics, it would depend a great deal on the period, the style, the composer, and so on. If, for example, I was faced with a very plain keyboard sarabande from circa 1700, you bet I would improvise lots of melodic filler. Bach himself tends to leave less room for this sort of thing, as did most composers as you get into the late 18th century. > >>In this context, the practical differences between temperaments like some >>of Neidhardt's and Marpurg's and ET are angels dancing on the head of pin. > On this I must disagree strongly. Modern day ears can easily hear the >differences in a tuning that provides key character and ET ,which does not. Perhaps I was not clear enough in my qualifications. I had in mind some temperaments such as Neidhardt's and Marpurg's divisions of the ditonic comma. Looking them up in Barbour (who at least comes in handy when comparing things to 12TET), I see that Marpurg's 1/3 comma temperament is out at most 6 cents from ET, with a mean deviation of 3 cents. Neidhardt's 1/4 comma is at most 4 cents away, and Marpurg's 1/6 comma has a mean deviation of only .7 cents! Now, would I be able to tell the difference between such temperaments and ET on a synthesizer or a harpsichord tuned with electronic help? Absolutely. Perhaps Ed thought that I was saying the opposite, which I am not. Would I be able to tell the difference between such temperaments if tuned by ear counting beats of simultaneous intervals by a skilled tuner who took his time? Again, yes, I think so. Would I be able to tell the difference between such temperaments if tuned by ear of successive intervals, not checking thirds, by a keyboard player who had a half hour before a rehearsal. Hmm, in that situation I think the margin for error Marpurg, Neidhardt, and ET will start to overlap. But let's take a more extreme case, as you suggest, of pure versus ET intervals. Certainly such differences were quite significant to practical musicians of that time when tuning harpsichords. But the original question was about the use of fretted strings in ensembles with harpsichords. The question then becomes, do those differences create enough dissonance to be objectionable? Since we have plenty of documentary evidence that lutes, archlutes, theorbos, and viols often played with harpsichords -- especially in the 17th century -- the answer has to be either "no" or that harpsichords were tempered to be at least closer to the fretted strings. My own feeling is that the objectionability depends on many factors, including the size of the ensemble and the speed of the music. Certainly lutes were often used in large ensembles, especially in France and Italy in the seventeenth century, but I heard a fine performance the other night on PBS of Purcell trio sonatas and songs accompanied by a harpsichord and an archlute. While I don't know how they tuned the harpsichord, the result was lovely. Bill ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^ ^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^ ^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^ ^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu From: Gregg Gibson Subject: 31-tone equal melodic progression PostedDate: 12-12-97 00:42:08 SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu $MessageStorage: 0 $UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH RouteTimes: 12-12-97 00:40:12-12-12-97 00:40:13,12-12-97 00:39:57-12-12-97 00:39:57 DeliveredDate: 12-12-97 00:39:57 Categories: $Revisions: Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C125656A.008203A8; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:42:02 +0100 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA13332; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:42:08 +0100 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:42:08 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA13336 Received: (qmail 28541 invoked from network); 11 Dec 1997 15:41:55 -0800 Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 11 Dec 1997 15:41:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3490DC9C.7C8C@ww-interlink.net> Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu