source file: mills3.txt Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:17:01 +0100 Subject: 19 and melodic lemons From: William Sethares >I wish to comment again (briefly) on the melodic limen as it affects the >determination of temperament. OK, so we know by now that you are a fan of 19-tet. >Instead of attending to real issues, microtonalists have ... Real? Are you seriously suggesting that the melodic difference limen is the single most important aspect in choice of tuning? I can think of three counterarguments... (1) Melody is only one aspect of musical performance. Harmony is also important, and you will agree that there are many tunings that give more consonant (and more dissonant) harmonies than 19-tet. (2) Even within melody, intonation is very variable among instrumentalists. Often, this is intentional. The "flat" blues third may not give a "new" melody, but it sure does give a new feeling to the music. Such feelings are a *very* important aspect of many kinds of music, and may be of any size that is perceptible, not just those sizes that create "new" melodies. (3) Even if we grant the melodic difference limen at 1/3 tone, this says nothing about 19-tet per octave (or per stretched pseudo-octave as you prefer). Indeed, the octave of a note is *not* a substitute for that note in a melody. There is a paper (Diana Deutsch in Music Perception, I believe) in which simple melodies such as Yankee Doodle are played with the octaves of the notes scrambled up. Most people cannot recognize the melodies, though they can follow them once they are told what the melody is "supposed" to be. Thus melodic concerns cannot be used to justify *any* scale based on the octave. >I do _not_ believe it is possible to be inspired in 13- or 20-tone equal; the lack of even the shadow of any possible musical order is too great. Humbug. Ask people who have composed in these scales (I am one, and there are others, both on and off this list). Inspiration is something that can strike at any time, in any tuning. The notion of an "impoverished" scale is equally foolish. Different scales have different stories to tell. Would you really have us all fall into line, all playing with the newest greatest next best thing (in your opinion 19- tet)? >This is as far as the most charitable informed person can go in the way of an open mind. Perhaps this is some new notion of the word "charity" that I am unfamiliar with. Now I have to admit that I like 19-tet also. I have composed several pieces (one was on the ill fated 19 for the 90's collection, another is on my forthcoming Xentonality CD). In my opinion the best feature of 19-tet is how familiar everything is. Hence, yes Bob Lee, it might be fun to tune a steel guitar that way. 19-tet makes a great bridge into alternative tunings, and it may well be useful as a tool for "seducing" people, for introducing them to the whole idea that non-12-tet music exists. But let's not get carried away. I suggest, Greg Gibson, that you try some of the other tunings that you have been so condescendingly diss-ing for the past several weeks. Bill Sethares SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu From: "Paul H. Erlich" Subject: Re G. Gibson in TD1265 and on the sensitivity of intervals to mistuning PostedDate: 18-12-97 02:23:17 SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu $MessageStorage: 0 $UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH RouteTimes: 18-12-97 02:21:12-18-12-97 02:21:12,18-12-97 02:20:49-18-12-97 02:20:50 DeliveredDate: 18-12-97 02:20:50 Categories: $Revisions: Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C1256571.00076D4F; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:23:03 +0100 Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA17892; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:23:17 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:23:17 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA18582 Received: (qmail 2997 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1997 17:23:14 -0800 Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Dec 1997 17:23:14 -0800 Message-Id: Errors-To: madole@mills.edu Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu