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Forum for Tune Smithy, Bounce Metronome and other software from Robert Inventor
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Author Topic: discovering chaos interface hate  (Read 14561 times)
calude
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2009, 01:32:24 PM »

hi
about the swing
this is still confusing because in my modern/contemporary/poprockjazz etc. music world swing means one thing and in your mathematician world another
getting slowly discouraged
ok
the swing with 2 sub beats is right if you don't forget to uncheck adjust last beat in bar towards first by
BUT then with 4 sub beats swing is completly wrong in my world because only  even subbeat should be affected by the swing shift
AND it is very important that some value be shown over the swing fader or we dont see what we are doing precisely
this is the swing I would like to see in my ideal simple metronome

this for tonight

regards Calude




Okay here is the beta:
http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe

I've done the swing, also fixed one or two of the other things too while at it.

Welcome your comments. Plan to work on it  some more and may now upload it next week all being well.

Okay I'll copy the wiki wish list to this forum as a new topic for comments.

The reason it's in the wiki is because the wiki is set up to make it easy to edit a permanent page, and it is useful to have the wish list as a permanent page for reference. E.g. so you can see which wishes have been implemented, progress on each, etc. If it's needed, other users can collaborate in editing the page too.

So anyway if there is a wish list thread here, it is easy to just copy stuff over to the wiki and back again as needed.

Thanks,

Robert


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Robert Walker
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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2009, 02:42:09 PM »

Hi Calude,

Sorry about that. I understood what you meant in your post, just forgot to do anything about it. Will need to think about what to do in Bounce Metronome Pro.

Meanwhile, however, you can do it by hand.

FIRST WAY TO DO IT. - go to window 76, and select the part that plays most beats.

Then select Set Metrical Pulse. Then set the pulse to 2 sub-beats. Now the swing will work in pairs.

SECOND WAY

Another  thing you can do - if you set it to e.g. 4 sub-beats then you will see a new check box in the main window which will say "Also 2". Select that and you get an extra part that beats the eighth notes. (this is a new check box I added for this beta).

If you then swing the sixteenth notes with the eighth notes emphasized like that, then they will automatically get swung in pairs.

So - one simple way to get it to always do that is to have Set Metrical Pulse preset to switched on, and preset always to 2 sub-beats - except for compound time with no subdivisions when it would need to be set to 3  sub-beats.

I could just do that but will give it a bit of thought, to see if it is the best approach.

The adjust last beat towards first should now be preset to switched off for new rhythms.

I can understand the motivation for putting a number over the slider, but not sure about how to do it in practice.

One approach is shown in the More version of window 76 (use Organise Windows F2 then Show More Buttons to access the more versions of the windows if you haven't already).

There a light swing is shown as 66.67% above the slider, or as 300 to 200.

I could perhaps make a tool tip that shows above the slider when you click on it, to show the amount of the swing, also when you release the button, which might be one way to do it, and maybe the tip could show all the information since there's lots of room in a balloon just show it as

"swing 300 to 200, 66.67%, Light Swing".
 
Perhaps I'll give that a go and see what it feels like in the beta, might be one way to do it. I think I've seen it done like that before, somewhere, to show information about the slider position in a tool tip for the slider, and that has the advantage it doesn't take up any more space in the user interface.


Robert
http://www.bouncemetronome.com

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calude
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2009, 12:36:57 PM »

I quote myself because this is not fixed because it still breaks the rythm you when rightclicking in the lanes
although this ""Adjust beat times with click and drag on blocks display" is unchecked

calude



Hi
please take this "change time on individual beats" feature OUT of the main page parts and leave it somewhere in a specialised window if you want
I keep touching those while muting hits on the lanes or else then theres no way back

Please please

Calude

coming back with more later


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Robert Walker
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 03:20:50 AM »

Oh, that's the option to right click on a part to tap out a new rhythm for the part with the right button or space bar. As the first tap, it erases the beats for the part, ready to start a new rhythm.

To skip beats use the LEFT BUTTON.

I'll see what I can do to make this clearer, maybe show a message to the user for first right click or something.

Robert

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Robert Walker
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2009, 04:10:38 AM »

I've done that message now for the next upload.

Can understand why this was confusing - often the right button in a program brings up the "Right click context menu" - in BM PRO also. So it's a natural thing to do to right click on a control to adjust it.

However, the right button can basically be used for anything you like in Windows so long as you make it clear to the user how it is used. Indeed, it is often used in other ways not for the right context menu. So the way it is used here is okay, but I haven't made it sufficiently clear to the user how it works in the context, hence the confusion.

Hopefully that is fixed now with the new message for next upload.

Also with the tips for the skip beats and adjust times, redone so they say

LEFT CLICK

rather than just

CLICK

Did you get my message yet about the new upload with the fix for your bug report?

Will also do another upload soon, with the new messages and some minor fixes and improvements in the beta.

Cheers,

Robert

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Robert Walker
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2009, 07:58:56 AM »

Just uploaded the latest beta with the new message if user right clicks on the bouncing balls, and saying LEFT CLICK in the tips.

I've also made a new "Swing preferences" window to the beta to reduce the number of controls in the Adjust Swing and Individual Beats window which is getting rather crowded. + other minor modifications.

Here it is, same url as before:
http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe

Not very much left on my "urgent to do" list now. So, if nothing new turns up and no more bugs to fix, will probably release it some time this weekend.

Robert

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calude
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2009, 05:26:01 AM »

its the release not the beta that you uploaded thats why I got the same bug as the recent beta
all I can say is that it got installed in my regular install folder

Calude


Just uploaded the latest beta with the new message if user right clicks on the bouncing balls, and saying LEFT CLICK in the tips.

I've also made a new "Swing preferences" window to the beta to reduce the number of controls in the Adjust Swing and Individual Beats window which is getting rather crowded. + other minor modifications.

Here it is, same url as before:
http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe

Not very much left on my "urgent to do" list now. So, if nothing new turns up and no more bugs to fix, will probably release it some time this weekend.

Robert


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Robert Walker
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2009, 10:35:58 AM »

Sorry about that, and thanks for letting me know.

Yes you are right, I must have made and uploaded a release installer by mistake instead of a beta. So as you say it installs the beta to overwrite the executable in the release folder.

Expect you've fixed it - you need to move the new june 05 executable from the release folder to the beta, renamed to replace the file Bounce Metronome Beta.exe and then reinstall from the web site to restore the correct .exe to the release folder. You can check the date of the program when you run it from Help | About.

Robert

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Robert Walker
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2009, 06:05:16 AM »

New version of beta at:

http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe

All left on the "to do" list is to do a bit more tool tip help and some minor bug fixes. Plus to make the RETURN key stop / start play high priority so that it interrupts the rhythm instantly even if it is very fast (like the F11 stop play shortcut key).

Apart from that as ready as I can make it with the most urgent fixes and updatees.

Release probably very soon if nothing else turns up.

Robert

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Robert Walker
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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2009, 05:17:21 AM »

Hi Calude,

Any comments or issues with the beta?

I've decided to take a bit more time over the beta before going  to release - particularly the keyboard shortcuts needed a bit of thought and there were some more minor bugs to fix. Disabling backspace for editing for the backspace for tempo shortcut particularly needed thought.

Implemented some more of your suggestions too - now you can set the volume for any beat directly in the parts row. Also the muted parts are shown as grayed out, and I'm working on a way to do keyboard shortcuts to mute / disable individual parts.

Still plan to release soon as it is ready for release so that new downloaders can have the latest version. It's not a deadline as far as comments or suggestions are concerned however hope that's clear.

Do say if you have any other thoughts or comments at all. Can do another beta when its ready if needed, or can just go straight to the release when it is ready.

Thanks,

Robert

Linkback: http://robertinventor.com/smf/index.php?topic=35.msg89#msg89
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calude
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« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2009, 12:43:48 PM »

hi

start a 4/4 with 2 (or4) subbeats
set some swing (normal swing)
add a part set it to 2 beats with the right arrow

-the normal swing is lost and we are send to irregular limpy rythm

boy I hate all those limpy features cant you find an other name than swing for it, put it in a other window were it can be forgotten.
 Grin

-how do you delete a part ??

-I dont want individual volumes per beat!!!
I proposed a simple accent feature

-those tempo indications clutter the display and are not useful ??we already have the tempo dial

-We have two special parts that must be shown better and used more in the program : Bar and beats
those are always present and we treat them almost as regular parts.
why call them part 1 or 2 ?
why not in plain english Bar and N Beat (N is the number of beats )
all other parts are subbeats and should be named accordingly
SubBar N for subBar parts that divide the Bar in N parts (N is the number of beats that divide the bar)
and
SubBeat N/Beat for sub beats parts that divide the Beat (N is the number of beats that divide the beat)

- when we increase the nb of beatson a part with the right arrow it would be great if some counter could count the nb of beats we are setting

All for today

Calude

PS: I prefer betas often


Hi Calude,

Any comments or issues with the beta?

I've decided to take a bit more time over the beta before going  to release - particularly the keyboard shortcuts needed a bit of thought and there were some more minor bugs to fix. Disabling backspace for editing for the backspace for tempo shortcut particularly needed thought.

Implemented some more of your suggestions too - now you can set the volume for any beat directly in the parts row. Also the muted parts are shown as grayed out, and I'm working on a way to do keyboard shortcuts to mute / disable individual parts.

Still plan to release soon as it is ready for release so that new downloaders can have the latest version. It's not a deadline as far as comments or suggestions are concerned however hope that's clear.

Do say if you have any other thoughts or comments at all. Can do another beta when its ready if needed, or can just go straight to the release when it is ready.

Thanks,

Robert


Linkback: http://robertinventor.com/smf/index.php?topic=35.msg90#msg90
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Robert Walker
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2009, 02:10:12 PM »

Hi Calude,

Quote
start a 4/4 with 2 (or4) subbeats
set some swing (normal swing)
add a part set it to 2 beats with the right arrow

-the normal swing is lost and we are send to irregular limpy rythm

I tried to reproduce this but just got a normal swing here. Do you have "Swing part with most beats only" unselected?

If that's not it then please send me a project. Best to save it using Help | Save as Project for Robertinventor support as that gives me the most complete possible information to help reproduce the bug.

Quote
boy I hate all those limpy features cant you find an other name than swing for it, put it in a other window were it can be forgotten.


The lilt features are now all in the Bounce Preferences window. Lilt would be a better name for it probably instead of Swing. When used in moderation it can help make the rhythm more lively and easier to practice along with, I find it so with my own practice with the metronome at any rate. But as you say, the metronome should be organised so that a user who doesn't need the lilt features shouldn't be bothered by them.

The F1 help for the SWING METRONOME (selected from the main window drop list) in the next upload makes the distinction clearer to the user - as I've made the help for it in two sections.

FIRST SECTION OF THE HELP for a user who wants to practice normal swing with a completely steady beat with no variation at all.

SECOND SECTION OF THE HELP for a user who wants to add a lilt to make the rhythm a bit more lively and less like the normal metornome regular clock like tick.

Quote
-how do you delete a part ??


At present you can only silence a part, not delete it. But this is a feature I can add to the wish list for the future.

I assume the idea is to remove the part and move the later numbered parts up so that e.g. if part 2 is deleted, then the old part 3 becomes part 2, old part 4 becomes part 3 etc.?

Quote
-I dont want individual volumes per beat!!!
I proposed a simple accent feature


Okay. Then I need to think about it some more, as it's not yet obvious to me exactly how to present it to the user without confusion.

So many questions arise when I try to think about the idea. The problem is that the user may have set the volumes by hand. Should the accents feature just erase all user set volumes? Or be added on top of them? If so how? How should it be displayed visually? Will a user find the three stage skipped beat / normal / accents confusing if they just want to skip beats and don't need the accents feature? If so should two separate controls be shown instead, if so how?

There's nothing wrong with the idea itself. The questions are all about: how should I integrate it into the program? At present I have no clear idea yet of how to do it. I expect a solution will turn up eventually.

So anyway that's why it was simpler to just allow user to adjust volumes individually for now. This new volumes adjustment feature can be switched off if you want just like the times adjustment feature - but shouldn't cause any problems for normal use, as it requires the middle button or shift + click which you are unlikely to press by accident.

So I'll keep the new feature, and then see what can be done about accents at a later date.

Quote
-those tempo indications clutter the display and are not useful ??we already have the tempo dial


You can remove them in Metronome Bouncing Ball  - Other Visuals (Ctrl + 225)
UNSELECT Show Allegro, Andante etc (tempo names).
UNSELECT Show Tempi (beats per minute).

Quote
Why not in plain english Bar and N Beat (N is the number of beats )
all other parts are subbeats and should be named accordingly
SubBar N for subBar parts that divide the Bar in N parts (N is the number of beats that divide the bar)
and
SubBeat N/Beat for sub beats parts that divide the Beat (N is the number of beats that divide the beat)


Thanks, good suggestion! I can add this as a feature.

Quote
PS: I prefer betas often


Okay will do you another. Just preparing an upload for today, will post again when it is ready.

Thank for your feedback! This is very useful and eventually we'll converge on something that is satisfactory I'm sure :-).

Robert





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Robert Walker
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« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2009, 02:17:03 PM »

Quote
The lilt features are now all in the Bounce Preferences window.


Sorry, I mean, they are now in the SWING PREFERENCES window (Ctrl + 232)

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Robert Walker
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« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2009, 02:59:53 PM »

Here it is, same url as before.

http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe

It's date from Help | About should be Jun 10th.

Also it should show the version as 3.2 now - there are many significant changes so I have decided it is time for a version number update!

Thanks,

Robert

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Robert Walker
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« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2009, 03:19:29 PM »

BTW - here is how to use the keyboard shortcut to mute individual parts with the latest beta:

Shift + space to switch the feature on.

Press the number keys 1 2 3 4 etc across top of keyboard to mute or play the correspondingly numbered part in the rhythm. This will work throughout Bounce Metronome Pro.

Shift + space to switch the feature off again to return to normal use of the number keys for text entry.

The one thing I haven't worked out yet is how to indicate visually to the user whether the feature is switched on or not. There's a check box in the bounce preferences window (Ctrl + 220) and you will notice that Shift + space (anywhere in BM Pro) switches this on / off. But probably I should also have it indicated visually in the bouncing balls display too in some simple unobtrusive way.

Robert

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