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Bounce Metronome => Archived Posts => Topic started by: calude on May 14, 2009, 02:08:02 AM

Forum for Tune Smithy, Bounce Metronome and other software from Robert Inventor

Title: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on May 14, 2009, 02:08:02 AM
Hi
yes my subject is a little aggressive as  I'm going thru a love and hate relation with you products

not the ideas, not the depth, which are brilliant, but the user interface which is awful

ok let me explain

I'm a musician and music teacher and very very interested in all the fun, useful, things you propose but I'm still really hesitating to get the license because I'm sure I'm going to be angry at you 10 times a year when I dont find the things I want to do or break the fine rhythm I just created  by touching something unexpected.

I have been playing with the tunesmyty metronome already and felt overwhelmed by all these windows I didn't understand
and here "new" product and all these other parts are still there....

I want I metronome and thats all !!! take all those tsmty parts away please ! If I want to try the other stuff I'll upgrade or buy something other.

the main thing I'm hating in your program interface is all those separate setup settings preference windows
they all look alike,  there are 6 windows concerning the bouncing ball (220,221,225,227,231, 007)all look alike with no apparent organization.
I just cant find where the things are

then all those redundant controls, buttons you find in several windows why the newbie doesnt understand why and will get afraid and lost.

then you press one some button like "show swing and rythm" and nothing happens untill you discover the window was opened under the main one ??? this happens all the time.

in the part lanes on the bottom it happened me several time to destroy the regularity of the rythm by touching things on the part lane and then no way to come back. this is too specialized and wierd and therefore shouldnt happen accidentally during regular use. makes you loose your work if you didnt save just before.

 the space bar gives completly unpredictable results acording to which window you in make it metronome on off thru the whole program I dont want to have strange things happening while explaining thing to a student

there are a lot of stuff in the main window that are of little use in normal that could leave more space for the part lanes why make such a big tempo dial.

to resume there is no other such powerful metronome in the world, thats why I took the time to write to you and am ready to help and of course register. but please seriously consider to rework the whole interface in depth if you want to sell some of them.

Calude



 








Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on May 14, 2009, 03:10:54 PM
Hi Calude,

Thanks, your message is very helpful, and I'll see what I can do about it.

================================================

First, let's see if there is anything I can address right away

== Tempo Dial ==

The tempo dial is as large as that so that you can read the tempo markings Allegro etc easily. If you go to Options | Split this window, then you can split the main window into three parts, and then resize the tempo dial to whatever size you like best.

== Blocks and parts adjustments ==

You can hide the blocks below the bouncing balls, or hide some of the controls there. I thought that very few people would want to do this, so this option is rather hard to find.

Here is how to find it - go to Visuals (menu) | Bouncing Ball Visuals (Ctrl + 225) | More. If you don't see a More button there yet, then you can show it from Organise Windows (F2) | Show More Buttons.

You will then see a very much larger version of window 225. You can ignore most of that window.

Somewhere amongst all those check boxes, you'll see a check box "Show ordinary rhythms and polyrhythms below as blocks". Unselect that and you'll remove those block and the adjustment controls completely.

Or to just remove the adjustment controls for the parts,  uncheck  "Show part strip adjustments" in the same window

== Undo ==

If you have just made a rhythm and then click something that loses it then you may be able to undo the change using Ctrl + Shift + Z - support for this is still a little patchy at present, so I think there are some bugs in this feature - and I'll investigate this for the next update of the program, but it is worth a try. It's Ctrl + Shift +Y to redo the change.

The global undo is configured in Undo Changes and Backup History Trails (Ctrl + 38). If you want to record everything you change for undo then set that to record the Bounce Metronome Project under What to record for Undo.

== Space bar ==

This is more problematic, the thing is that the space bar is used as a "button press" command in the windows user interface for keyboard users. It presses whichever button has the keyboard focus. A keyboard user will use the tab key to move between controls in a window then the space bar to press the control (this includes blind users but also users who can see but can't use a mouse or prefer not to use the mouse much).

The shortcut to stop and start the tune, which works throughout Bounce Metronome Pro is Ctrl + P. I'd recommend you use that normally in place of the space bar.  The disadvantage of the Ctrl + P is that you need two hands to do it.

If you have just pressed the play button with the mouse then you can use the space bar to stop and start the metronome. Also, you can also use the space bar for the tempo dial or the bouncing ball window to set the tempo or to enter a new rhythm. Otherwise the space bar is really for keyboard only users.

I'll think over whether there is any single key that could be used as a natural single key shortcut to stop and start the metronome.

================================================

== Parts ==

The tune smithy parts are especially useful for polyrhythm practice, so that you can hear each part e..g. in a 3:5 polyrhythm or whatever, on a distinctive instrument.

It also can be useful to have a distinctive instrument for the bar beat.


=================================================

> the main thing I'm hating in your program interface is all those separate setup settings preference windows
they all look alike,  there are 6 windows concerning the bouncing ball (220,221,225,227,231, 007)all look alike with no apparent organization.
> I just cant find where the things are

Yes, I agree! Though I don't know what the solution is. All those options may be needed by some users and there are too many of them to fit into fewer windows.

I may be able to help a bit with a fresh look at the program to identify the most important features to make them easier to find.

One important feature which is currently rather hidden away is:

==Sync with audio==
You use this to adjust the synchronisation of the bouncing ball visuals with the audio - usually because the soundcard has noticeable latency. It's currently under Bounce Options Ctrl + 220.

My best solution to that though may be to make yet another  window "Sync Bouncing Balls with Audio" as it doesn't seem to particularly fit with any of the other options :-). This has been an on-going issue for all my programs

================================================

Yes, many of the things in the main window will be seldom used by most users. So much of that window could be removed. But the thing that makes this tricky is that different users will have different ideas about which of them are most important and which should be left out altogether, even the same user on different occasions. E.g. if you are practicing swing then you will want different things easily accessible from the main window from the ones you need to practice polyrhythms or drum rhythms.

So - it's the usual quandry - how do you cater for all the ways the program might be used while keeping to a simple interface?

One idea I have in mind is to do again with Bounce Metronome what I did with Tune Smithy 3 to make this program - which is to split it again into smaller programs.

Here is one way it could be split:

Basic bounce metronome - just a basic metronome with a steady tick, with the special thing about the metronome  the  bouncing  ball visuals.

Swing metronome - remove all the features except those needed for practicing rhythms with swing - and simplify the swing rhythm windows as much as possible

Polyrhythm metronome - focuses on the combine rhythms window

Drum metronome - focuses on the Dance etc window for rhythms perhaps of most interest to drummers.

Harmonic metronome

Fractal Tunes metronome - used for previewing your rhythms as fractal tunes.

Then you'd have the bounce metronome Pro as before which would include all those features for any who want to e.g. mix different things (polyrhythms with swing, harmonic rhythms with  swing or whatever it may be).

The Show swing and rhythm button in the main window was meant to switch between the basic and the advanced Bounce Metronome Pro, as you noticed, it changes the main window, also you get more options in the menu etc. It might be clearer with a message when you click the button to say what it does and to ask if that's what you want to do.

Anyway as with all my programs I'm continuing to work on it and will see what I can do to improve it. I'm taking a short break from programming at present, sort of holiday (working on something else actually) so when I come back to it at the end of this month or early June perhaps then with a fresh look maybe I can improve it. Also may follow up this idea to split into separate programs

What do you think about the split idea? Which parts of the program do you mainly use yourself? Any other thoughts on the matter?

I value your comments and criticism, that's how the program can be improved. Let me know if you have any more thoughts on it at all!

Thanks,

Robert

http://www.bouncemetronome.com


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on May 18, 2009, 04:54:22 PM
Here is the new upload, with the things I could fix right away.

http://www.bouncemetronome.com/download.htm (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/download.htm)
for some details of the changes see
http://www.bouncemetronome.com/whats_new.htm (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/whats_new.htm)

Hope you will find it helps.

Do let me know how it goes - and say if you think it is an improvement.

Thanks, Robert

DETAILS OF WHAT HAS BEEN FIXED ALREADY

> then you press one some button like "show swing and rythm" and nothing happens untill you discover the window was opened under the main one Huh this happens all the time.

- now shows a message to explain what is about to happen and to ask to confirm what you want to do. I hope this will make it all clearer to the user.

> in the part lanes on the bottom it happened me several time to destroy the regularity of the rythm by touching things on the part lane and then no way to come back. this is too specialized and wierd and therefore shouldnt happen accidentally during regular use. makes you loose your work if you didnt save just before.

No longer does this. You can use Shift + click on the control if you want to get a regular rhythm. If rhythm uses swing, redoes swing. Otherwise just keeps the timings as they are.

> the space bar gives completly unpredictable results acording to which window you in make it metronome on off thru the whole program I dont want to have strange things happening while explaining thing to a student

Now the help just says to use the right button to tap at the tempo, in the main window for the tempo dial. You can still use the space bar - but right button is less confusing to start with.

> there are a lot of stuff in the main window that are of little use in normal that could leave more space for the part lanes why make such a big tempo dial.

Re-organised it a bit which may help. For the tempo dial smaller go to Options | Split into separate windows.

An idea I have for later is - like the separate programs idea in my last post but the idea is to do it as a drop list at the top of the main window. So it would show Basic Metronome and Bounce Metronome Pro, and also add Swing Metronome, Polyrhythm Metronome, Drum metronome etc - select what you want from the drop list and main window changes accordingly.

E.g. for polyrhythm metronome main window would include preset buttons for most commonly used polyrhythms say, and leave out the swing buttons and check boxes.



Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on May 20, 2009, 05:32:23 AM
hi
I'll comment inline

Here is the new upload, with the things I could fix right away.

[url]http://www.bouncemetronome.com/download.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.bouncemetronome.com/download.htm[/url])
for some details of the changes see
[url]http://www.bouncemetronome.com/whats_new.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.bouncemetronome.com/whats_new.htm[/url])

Hope you will find it helps.

Do let me know how it goes - and say if you think it is an improvement.

Thanks, Robert

DETAILS OF WHAT HAS BEEN FIXED ALREADY

> then you press one some button like "show swing and rythm" and nothing happens untill you discover the window was opened under the main one Huh this happens all the time.

Cal- this was a bad example on my side because "show swing and rythm" changes the window content.
 I was more complaining about new windows opening and suddenly dissapearing (probably a refresh) behind the foremost (main window).
 as an example full screen the main window then open 220 while the metro is playing it will dissapear at some time.....
this comment was an argument to dump all this window opening scheme to a more stable way like one big preferences/option window with tabs for the different domains where it applies. one big window for all the bounces prefs will be simpler to remember than all these 5 or 6 different windows to open

Please Remember an usual user will NOT program and play with the setups every day and remember each and every keyboard¨/window/ preference location combination.
maybe you can but I wont!!!

- now shows a message to explain what is about to happen and to ask to confirm what you want to do. I hope this will make it all clearer to the user.

as explaine it doesnt help for the dissapearing window problem

> in the part lanes on the bottom it happened me several time to destroy the regularity of the rythm by touching things on the part lane and then no way to come back. this is too specialized and wierd and therefore shouldnt happen accidentally during regular use. makes you loose your work if you didnt save just before.

No longer does this. You can use Shift + click on the control if you want to get a regular rhythm. If rhythm uses swing, redoes swing. Otherwise just keeps the timings as they are.

NO it still happens that while changing instruments or muting individual hits, that you move the times of individual beats which I absolutely do NOT want ever. this is a totally advanced feature that should be burried far away from regular use maybe near lilt ??
although maybe a challenge for the programmer I dont see this as being useful at all and specially as implemented its is a pain

I dont understand why you added another check box to remove parts or adjustement those are fine and useful as they are


> the space bar gives completly unpredictable results acording to which window you in make it metronome on off thru the whole program I dont want to have strange things happening while explaining thing to a student

Now the help just says to use the right button to tap at the tempo, in the main window for the tempo dial. You can still use the space bar - but right button is less confusing to start with.

???? tap tempo and start stop must be accessible fast and reliable the right mouse is a joke

> there are a lot of stuff in the main window that are of little use in normal that could leave more space for the part lanes why make such a big tempo dial.

Re-organised it a bit which may help. For the tempo dial smaller go to Options | Split into separate windows.

about swing or shuffle(wich you implemented in a totally _un_ "musical" way) even wrong would i say as I couldnt recreate the usual way we use it!!!! all I could create is limpy rythms !!
this is a very precise thing in music and is really an important feature and should be on front page with a dial to adjust from 0% to 100%
if we have a quarter note steady beat, swing or shuffle can be applied on 8th notes or 16th note 
swing as it used by musicians is a displacement of the second eight note (off beat) or 2nd and 4th 16th note
the beat is never shifted never moves and is completely regular
the 1st and 3d 16th never move when 16th note swing/shuffle
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swung_note[/url]

what we usually see in sequencing program that allow swing shift is a fader that shifts the even eight note from 1/2 to 3/4
or the even 16th notes from 1/4 to 6/8

hope this can help some
cheers
Calude

An idea I have for later is - like the separate programs idea in my last post but the idea is to do it as a drop list at the top of the main window. So it would show Basic Metronome and Bounce Metronome Pro, and also add Swing Metronome, Polyrhythm Metronome, Drum metronome etc - select what you want from the drop list and main window changes accordingly.

E.g. for polyrhythm metronome main window would include preset buttons for most commonly used polyrhythms say, and leave out the swing buttons and check boxes.




Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on May 20, 2009, 08:07:52 AM
 Thanks for your reply!

> I was more complaining about new windows opening and suddenly dissapearing (probably a refresh) behind the foremost (main window).
> as an example full screen the main window then open 220 while the metro is playing it will dissapear at some time.....

Okay, I understand what you mean now. Tune Smithy had an option to open new windows on top of the main window, so I can put that into Bounce Metronome Pro which may help a bit. It's not a perfect solution though - the windows get in the way of the main window. So though they don't disappear, you end up closing them yourself in order to look at the main window - so you still have the same problem that you need to reshow the window when you want to change your settings.

> this comment was an argument to dump all this window opening scheme to a more stable way like one big preferences/option window with tabs for the different domains where it applies. one big window for all the bounces prefs will be simpler to remember than all these 5 or 6 different windows to open

Rightio, I understand what you have in mind, thanks, I've seen the type of interface you have in mind, usually an expanding tree, i.e. looking like a folder listing, to the left, then to the right you get the options for the highlighted entry, which could be a tabbed dialog.

The advantages of that approach are as you describe, easy to navigate. The disadvantage of that approach is that you can only show one of the windows at a time. In FTS and Bounce Metronome Pro then often you want to have several of the windows open at once.

Anyway here is something that may help right away.

TREE NAVIGATION OF WINDOWS IN BOUNCE METRONOME PRO

There is a tree in Bounce Metronome Pro already, however it is in menu format.

Right click on the O  Organise Windows icon in any of the windows. Then you can quickly navigate to any window using the menu that pops up.

Some time I want to do more work on that to make it easier to use and more like the type of tree you have in mind  - though at present I'm not sure how I would do it exactly.

> NO it still happens that while changing instruments or muting individual hits, that you move the times of individual beats which I absolutely do NOT want ever. this is a totally advanced feature that should be burried far away from regular use maybe near lilt ?? although maybe a challenge for the programmer I dont see this as being useful at all and specially as implemented its is a pain

The way it is meant to work is that you can click and drag on the lines between the beats to adjust the individual beat times - in the same way you can do it in the Adjust Swing and Individual Beats window.

CLICK TO CHANGE TIMES BUG

However just testing it here, I've found a bug. When you click on the part, the line that starts the beat should move to the exact position of the mouse. It is doing something else. So I'll investigate that and fix it.

If you click on the controls to the left and right of the parts strip then the timing shouldn't change with this new upload. Only if you click on the parts strip itself then the timing will change.

So - anyway I'll fix the bug. Is that the problem I wonder?

> I dont understand why you added another check box to remove parts or adjustement those are fine and useful as they are

The idea there was that by hiding those parts adjustments then the user can't change the rhythm accidentally by clicking on the bouncing balls display. Also makes the  visuals a bit simpler to look at.

> ? tap tempo and start stop must be accessible fast and reliable the right mouse is a joke

Okay. Yes indeed, the right mouse does require you to look at the screen and click on an element in the screen.

Not sure what the alternative is though. Space bar is tricky for the reason you said, that it is used in so many different ways. 

Obviously for instance, you can't use the space bar to stop and start the tune and also to set the tempo - and it must be permitted to use the space bar to press a button as keyboard users expect that.

So they need different shortcuts if you are to use just the keyboard without picking up the mouse and clicking on the screen.

I will think it over and see if I can think of anything. One needs to think carefully before changing anything in the way important keyboard shortcuts work for the program.

Do you have any suggestions yourself?

> about swing or shuffle(wich you implemented in a totally _un_ "musical" way) even wrong would i say as I couldnt recreate the usual way we use it!!!! all I could create is limpy rythms !!
> this is a very precise thing in music and is really an important feature and should be on front page with a dial to adjust from 0% to 100%
> if we have a quarter note steady beat, swing or shuffle can be applied on 8th notes or 16th note
swing as it used by musicians is a displacement of the second eight note (off beat) or 2nd and 4th 16th note
> the beat is never shifted never moves and is completely regular
> the 1st and 3d 16th never move when 16th note swing/shuffle
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swung_note
> what we usually see in sequencing program that allow swing shift is a fader that shifts the even eight note from 1/2 to 3/4
> or the even 16th notes from 1/4 to 6/8

NORMAL SWING FOR JUST THE 8th OR 16TH NOTES

Oh, you can recreate the usual type of a swing - but the thing to do is to set the swing to 100% for all the other parts, the ones you don't need swung. Yes the interface is a bit confusing there.

The thing is that the swing window is used to add swing to ONE PART AT A TIME.

Example in 4/4 with 2 sub-beats, then set the swing to 100% for the 4 beats to a bar and to whatever amount you want as the amount of swing for the 8 beats to a bar.

So in that example - in the swing window first select part 1 at the top of the window for the 4 beats, and set the swing to 100%. Then change to part 2 for the 8 beats, and set it to whatever amount of swing you want.

SOME RHYTHMS NEED SWING FOR SEVERAL PARTS SIMULTANEOUSLY

In other rhythms, sometimes you may need swing for more than one of the parts.

With a 6/8 jig in scottish dance music, then you swing each of the triplets, and also the middle beat of the bar is swung too, so the first triplet of the 6/8 takes a longer time to play than the last triplet - so that's an example where you might swing both parts.

Yes, I know, and can hear, just as you say, that in a lot of music with a very steady tempo especially modern dance music, then the beats are often as you say exactly regular, sometimes even as regular as a metronome tick.

But in other types of music then the main beats within a bar do vary too, even for dance. It may be just a subtle variation, but often there is some variation in individual beats. If you clap to a lively rhythm played by musicians, then your clapping is often not exactly regular in the clock like way a metronome is regular.

So the idea was to try to program that sort of a rhythm, just as an example to get started to show how you can vary even the main beats in Bounce Metronome Pro. The main beats within a bar can vary in many ways so just meant as one example there.

So anyway if you tried that out, for the quarter notes you'd normally do those with just a gentle lilt or not at all, rather than a hard swing.

So - that's what I was trying to do there. But it's confusing, perhaps because I'm trying to do two things at once - have an option to vary the main beat as a gentle lilt (normally) -  and to have an option to vary the amount of swing.

So, to help the user see how this feature works - what I plan to do for the swing metronome is to have separate controls in the main window for the amount of swing for the first two parts in the rhythm. That should make it clearer how it works. Also have some preset rhythms so e.g. 4/4 with no lilt or swing for the quarter notes and swung eighth notes.

Yes, a fader for the amount of swing sounds like a good idea. Also some way to set the swing for just one part and set the amount of swing to 100% for all the other parts in one go. I'll see what I can do there.

Anyway I see the confusion here, and will see what I can do to clear it up a bit with an improved interface.

Hope this helps, and do say more about it all, it's very useful to have your comments on the program!

Thanks,

Robert





Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on May 21, 2009, 03:25:44 AM
Hi
please take this "change time on individual beats" feature OUT of the main page parts and leave it somewhere in a specialised window if you want
I keep touching those while muting hits on the lanes or else then theres no way back

Please please

Calude

coming back with more later


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on May 21, 2009, 04:59:02 AM
Okay fine, I'll just make it a check box in Bounce Options:
"Adjust beat times with click and drag on blocks display"

then any users of the program can switch the feature on or off according to their preferences.

BTW I'm in the middle of adding swing sliders to the main window just now.
I've also added a check box: "Swing part with most beats only" which will be preset to selected.

That may deal with most of the swing rhythm confusions in the interface, hopefully.

Also added a drop list at the top of the main window, to select between the basic metronome, pro metronome, and other layouts for the main window such as swing metronome, additive rhythms metronome and polyrhythms metronome. So - that all will replace the Show swing and rhythms button.

If all goes according to plan, should be able to do a new update perhaps by early next week, possibly sooner. Anyway, will see how it goes, will work at it over this weekend.

Thanks,

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on May 21, 2009, 06:42:24 AM
Hi
great thanks
another very simple one:
on the part lanes I would like you to invert the graphics of the beats : strong for the hits and weak for the mutes, it is confusing
also on great additional feature would be accents
so when editing single hits we would scroll thru 3 values on; accent; muted.  there should be new dot type for accent
Accent meaning (+ xx velocity)
accent value could be on the front page

have a nice day

Calude


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on May 21, 2009, 01:55:45 PM
Hi,

Rightio. The way the colouring works is that if no beats are skipped, it just alternates between coloured and light.

When beats are skipped then the block gets made longer with a gradient fill. The idea of that is to have no boundary lines between the skipped beat and the beat before it.

Anyway so that was the idea but I can see now that it can be confusing like that.

So I'm now experimenting with an idea which is to make all the blocks shade from coloured to light, so the START OF EVERY (UNSKIPPED) BEAT IS COLOURED.

Just tested it and it looks quite good so far, though the skipped beats diamonds need some work as they are rather indistinct like that. So anyway , need to work it up some more and see how it goes.

Thanks for the accents idea, that's a nice thought indeed, suggests a few possibilities. So, I'll see what I come up with on that.

Have a nice day too!

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on May 23, 2009, 06:40:13 AM
Just solved the conundrum of the shortcut keys for play / stop and for the
tempo, I think.

My starting point was - what are the largest keys on the keyboard - so easiest to type?

Answer: the space bar, return, backspace and shift keys.

Of those, the space bar key is ruled out as already mentioned because keyboard users need to use it to press buttons. Also shift key ruled out as it is too often needed for other things.

The RETURN KEY normally is the shortcut for the "default button" e.g. the Ok
button in a dialog. So that is a natural choice for the PLAY / STOP rhythm -
so works a bit like the default button for all the windows with play tune
buttons in them.

That leaves the BACKSPACE key. Since one doesn't do that much editing in
Bounce Metronome Pro then it's fine as a shortcut for the TEMPO TAP.

Then you have to look at how the new shortcuts might impact on the normal use of those keys.

The return key is fine since it is very like the normal use of the return key to press the default button. So following that model, it will work everywhere except when the user is editing multi-line text such as the script. In multi-line edit fields, the return key is needed for new line entry. So has to be disabled then, and user then has to use the old Ctrl + P shortcut instead, but luckily mulit-line editing is rare in BM Pro. Needed for the dance rhythms edit field, and the script edit, that's about it.

The backspace key is a bit more tricky. Users might want to edit e.g. the numbers in FTS using the backspace key. However they have alternatives there. They can use the delete key instead of backspace. Or they can highlight the number then type in the new value to replace the highlight.

So anyway - programmed it and it is working fine as expected here in the
release candidate.

I've done it so that you can switch that off if it is a nuisance when editing text in BM Pro. Even when switched off, you can use backspace for tempo taps when the keyboard focus is set to a control that doesn't accept text entry (buttons, dials, check boxes etc).

So anyway that's the best so far, will think over it some more before the upload, but it is looking good.

Implemented the shaded blocks now btw and the separate main windows for the different ways of using BM Pro.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on May 25, 2009, 03:03:11 AM
continuing on the part lanes display

-reordering: I would like a function to reorder the lanes by NB of beats with the 1 beat at the bottom and the most beats at the top .
 and maybe also manually by selecting the lane and using for the up and down arrows.

-the part nb and midi instrument is very intrusive visually and should be optional, it even could be in a separate display on the window or as a pop up when hovering on the left "change instrument" dot

- and as we can skin almost anything in this program let us change the display gradient in the lanes to plain color or no change when mutes happen...

- I don't really understand why the dots aren't situated exactly where the beats are on the upper grid or more simply said as in any drum machine grid/rhythm representation : all coincident beats would align, and here also with the bouncing balls

-the tempo listing of the different lanes should be optional as it takes space for the bounces and the beat numbers when you have a lot of parts

-the individual muting of each part should have its keyboard shortcuts

-when you set : split display into sections of n bouncing balls each it would be great that the display be refreshed/adapted when we use the show or hide the bouncing ball in the left part of the part lanes as it doesnt make sense to have a lane just taking space with no bouncing ball

thanks

Calude



Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on May 25, 2009, 03:15:19 PM
-reordering: I would like a function to reorder the lanes by NB of beats with the 1 beat at the bottom and the most beats at the top .
 and maybe also manually by selecting the lane and using for the up and down arrows.

OK WILL ADD TO WISH LIST

-the part nb and midi instrument is very intrusive visually and should be optional, it even could be in a separate display on the window or as a pop up when hovering on the left "change instrument" dot

- DONE FOR NEXT UPLOAD AS NEW CHECK BOX  in the Bouncing Ball Visuals window check boxes Show Parts and Show Instruments.

- and as we can skin almost anything in this program let us change the display gradient in the lanes to plain color or no change when mutes happen...

OKAY WILL THINK THIS OVER.

- I don't really understand why the dots aren't situated exactly where the beats are on the upper grid or more simply said as in any drum machine grid/rhythm representation : all coincident beats would align, and here also with the bouncing balls

CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THIS, MAYBE DO A SCREEN SHOT AND SAY A BIT MORE ABOUT WHAT TO LOOK FOR? I DON'T UNDERSTAND YET.

-the tempo listing of the different lanes should be optional as it takes space for the bounces and the beat numbers when you have a lot of parts

AGAIN CAN YOU SAY MORE, MAYBE WITH A SCREEN SHOT?

-the individual muting of each part should have its keyboard shortcuts

NICE IDEA BUT MIGHT BE TRICKY TO THINK OF SUITABLE SHORTCUTS FOR ALL THE PARTS, WILL THINK IT OVER.

-when you set : split display into sections of n bouncing balls each it would be great that the display be refreshed/adapted when we use the show or hide the bouncing ball in the left part of the part lanes as it doesnt make sense to have a lane just taking space with no bouncing ball

YES, GOOD POINT! I'LL LOOK INTO THAT.

THANKS FOR THE SUGGESTIONS. SOME THINGS I CAN DO RIGHT AWAY AND SOME I'LL ADD TO A WISH LIST.

I'LL START A BOUNCE METRONOME PRO WISH LIST IN THE FTS WIKI - HERE:

http://robertinventor.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bounce_Metronome_Pro_Wish_List (http://robertinventor.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bounce_Metronome_Pro_Wish_List)

BTW I've thought a bit about the accents idea. It will need some thought - because the user can already make accents by hand using the window to adjust individual beats. So then should the accents work by adjusting the individual beat volumes in that window - if so how do they interact with beats adjusted by the user  - or with the swing volumes feature - or should they be applied as extra volume boosts on top of the individual beat volumes?

This needs more thought, to see what the implications are for the rest of the user interface.

BTW work on Bounce Metronome Pro update is going well. Most of the main things implemented.

Today I've been working on the interface for blind users for the new versions of the main window (additive bounce metronome, polyrhythms bounce metonome etc). This has turned up a number of other things to fix - sometimes happens when I work on it that way, you look at the program differently and notice new things to fix.

So anyway - THE NEW UPDATE IS A BIT DELAYED. I now think that it may be more like the END OF THIS wEEK rather than the beginning of the week for the upload. But will see how it goes.

I find it is often not that easy to give a precise idea of how long programming will take, some things go much faster than expected, while other things that seemed just small details turn out to require a disproportionate amount of time. Example most of these new things only took an hour or less to do each - but I spent an entire afternoon on Saturday trying to skin the sliders as I had never done that before. Tried three different ways of doing it and none of them worked quite as expected, either no skin or the background texture sometimes would be drawn in front of the control hiding it.

So anyway I've just made the swing sliders as grey sliders with borders for now and will leave the skinning and revisit that at a later date probably start of June or there-abouts. Looks fine as it is, and won't affect functionality.

So anyway has a number of minor things to fix still, doesn't seem that much, but don't know how long it will take exactly.

If you are especially keen to see it as it is right away, then I can upload a beta.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on May 27, 2009, 10:33:23 AM
yes please a beta to check if we understood each other about swing
 ;D

great job btw
Calude

PS:I didnt understand why the wiki for wishes as we already have a forum which is easier to handle anyways



Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on May 29, 2009, 11:11:28 AM
Okay here is the beta:
http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe)

I've done the swing, also fixed one or two of the other things too while at it.

Welcome your comments. Plan to work on it  some more and may now upload it next week all being well.

Okay I'll copy the wiki wish list to this forum as a new topic for comments.

The reason it's in the wiki is because the wiki is set up to make it easy to edit a permanent page, and it is useful to have the wish list as a permanent page for reference. E.g. so you can see which wishes have been implemented, progress on each, etc. If it's needed, other users can collaborate in editing the page too.

So anyway if there is a wish list thread here, it is easy to just copy stuff over to the wiki and back again as needed.

Thanks,

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 02, 2009, 08:27:22 AM
Hi Calude,

I've started a wish list thread here to discuss the new wish list:

http://robertinventor.com/smf/index.php/topic,37.0.html (http://robertinventor.com/smf/index.php/topic,37.0.html)

Also done some more work on the beta. It is just about ready for release, expect to release in the next few days, that is if there is no more needing to be done.

How are you getting on with the beta?

This one fixes a few glitches in the last beta (introduced in it, not bugs in the release), and improves presentation in a few minor ways. Swing handled in the same way as previous beta.

So - nothing very new since the last beta, as far as swing is concerned. But you may as well have the latest beta if you are testing it out, and one of the bugs in the beta affected the way the blocks line up, which could cause some confusion in some situations.

Same url as before, uploaded to replace the previous beta:

http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe)

Look forward to hearing what you make of it. Is it an improvement for your purposes, do you think? Anything particular you want to draw my attention to?

Thanks,

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on June 02, 2009, 01:32:24 PM
hi
about the swing
this is still confusing because in my modern/contemporary/poprockjazz etc. music world swing means one thing and in your mathematician world another
getting slowly discouraged
ok
the swing with 2 sub beats is right if you don't forget to uncheck adjust last beat in bar towards first by
BUT then with 4 sub beats swing is completly wrong in my world because only  even subbeat should be affected by the swing shift
AND it is very important that some value be shown over the swing fader or we dont see what we are doing precisely
this is the swing I would like to see in my ideal simple metronome

this for tonight

regards Calude




Okay here is the beta:
[url]http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe[/url] ([url]http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe[/url])

I've done the swing, also fixed one or two of the other things too while at it.

Welcome your comments. Plan to work on it  some more and may now upload it next week all being well.

Okay I'll copy the wiki wish list to this forum as a new topic for comments.

The reason it's in the wiki is because the wiki is set up to make it easy to edit a permanent page, and it is useful to have the wish list as a permanent page for reference. E.g. so you can see which wishes have been implemented, progress on each, etc. If it's needed, other users can collaborate in editing the page too.

So anyway if there is a wish list thread here, it is easy to just copy stuff over to the wiki and back again as needed.

Thanks,

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 02, 2009, 02:42:09 PM
Hi Calude,

Sorry about that. I understood what you meant in your post, just forgot to do anything about it. Will need to think about what to do in Bounce Metronome Pro.

Meanwhile, however, you can do it by hand.

FIRST WAY TO DO IT. - go to window 76, and select the part that plays most beats.

Then select Set Metrical Pulse. Then set the pulse to 2 sub-beats. Now the swing will work in pairs.

SECOND WAY

Another  thing you can do - if you set it to e.g. 4 sub-beats then you will see a new check box in the main window which will say "Also 2". Select that and you get an extra part that beats the eighth notes. (this is a new check box I added for this beta).

If you then swing the sixteenth notes with the eighth notes emphasized like that, then they will automatically get swung in pairs.

So - one simple way to get it to always do that is to have Set Metrical Pulse preset to switched on, and preset always to 2 sub-beats - except for compound time with no subdivisions when it would need to be set to 3  sub-beats.

I could just do that but will give it a bit of thought, to see if it is the best approach.

The adjust last beat towards first should now be preset to switched off for new rhythms.

I can understand the motivation for putting a number over the slider, but not sure about how to do it in practice.

One approach is shown in the More version of window 76 (use Organise Windows F2 then Show More Buttons to access the more versions of the windows if you haven't already).

There a light swing is shown as 66.67% above the slider, or as 300 to 200.

I could perhaps make a tool tip that shows above the slider when you click on it, to show the amount of the swing, also when you release the button, which might be one way to do it, and maybe the tip could show all the information since there's lots of room in a balloon just show it as

"swing 300 to 200, 66.67%, Light Swing".
 
Perhaps I'll give that a go and see what it feels like in the beta, might be one way to do it. I think I've seen it done like that before, somewhere, to show information about the slider position in a tool tip for the slider, and that has the advantage it doesn't take up any more space in the user interface.


Robert
http://www.bouncemetronome.com


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on June 04, 2009, 12:36:57 PM
I quote myself because this is not fixed because it still breaks the rythm you when rightclicking in the lanes
although this ""Adjust beat times with click and drag on blocks display" is unchecked

calude



Hi
please take this "change time on individual beats" feature OUT of the main page parts and leave it somewhere in a specialised window if you want
I keep touching those while muting hits on the lanes or else then theres no way back

Please please

Calude

coming back with more later


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 05, 2009, 03:20:50 AM
Oh, that's the option to right click on a part to tap out a new rhythm for the part with the right button or space bar. As the first tap, it erases the beats for the part, ready to start a new rhythm.

To skip beats use the LEFT BUTTON.

I'll see what I can do to make this clearer, maybe show a message to the user for first right click or something.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 05, 2009, 04:10:38 AM
I've done that message now for the next upload.

Can understand why this was confusing - often the right button in a program brings up the "Right click context menu" - in BM PRO also. So it's a natural thing to do to right click on a control to adjust it.

However, the right button can basically be used for anything you like in Windows so long as you make it clear to the user how it is used. Indeed, it is often used in other ways not for the right context menu. So the way it is used here is okay, but I haven't made it sufficiently clear to the user how it works in the context, hence the confusion.

Hopefully that is fixed now with the new message for next upload.

Also with the tips for the skip beats and adjust times, redone so they say

LEFT CLICK

rather than just

CLICK

Did you get my message yet about the new upload with the fix for your bug report?

Will also do another upload soon, with the new messages and some minor fixes and improvements in the beta.

Cheers,

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 05, 2009, 07:58:56 AM
Just uploaded the latest beta with the new message if user right clicks on the bouncing balls, and saying LEFT CLICK in the tips.

I've also made a new "Swing preferences" window to the beta to reduce the number of controls in the Adjust Swing and Individual Beats window which is getting rather crowded. + other minor modifications.

Here it is, same url as before:
http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe)

Not very much left on my "urgent to do" list now. So, if nothing new turns up and no more bugs to fix, will probably release it some time this weekend.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on June 06, 2009, 05:26:01 AM
its the release not the beta that you uploaded thats why I got the same bug as the recent beta
all I can say is that it got installed in my regular install folder

Calude


Just uploaded the latest beta with the new message if user right clicks on the bouncing balls, and saying LEFT CLICK in the tips.

I've also made a new "Swing preferences" window to the beta to reduce the number of controls in the Adjust Swing and Individual Beats window which is getting rather crowded. + other minor modifications.

Here it is, same url as before:
[url]http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe[/url] ([url]http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe[/url])

Not very much left on my "urgent to do" list now. So, if nothing new turns up and no more bugs to fix, will probably release it some time this weekend.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 06, 2009, 10:35:58 AM
Sorry about that, and thanks for letting me know.

Yes you are right, I must have made and uploaded a release installer by mistake instead of a beta. So as you say it installs the beta to overwrite the executable in the release folder.

Expect you've fixed it - you need to move the new june 05 executable from the release folder to the beta, renamed to replace the file Bounce Metronome Beta.exe and then reinstall from the web site to restore the correct .exe to the release folder. You can check the date of the program when you run it from Help | About.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 08, 2009, 06:05:16 AM
New version of beta at:

http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe)

All left on the "to do" list is to do a bit more tool tip help and some minor bug fixes. Plus to make the RETURN key stop / start play high priority so that it interrupts the rhythm instantly even if it is very fast (like the F11 stop play shortcut key).

Apart from that as ready as I can make it with the most urgent fixes and updatees.

Release probably very soon if nothing else turns up.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 10, 2009, 05:17:21 AM
Hi Calude,

Any comments or issues with the beta?

I've decided to take a bit more time over the beta before going  to release - particularly the keyboard shortcuts needed a bit of thought and there were some more minor bugs to fix. Disabling backspace for editing for the backspace for tempo shortcut particularly needed thought.

Implemented some more of your suggestions too - now you can set the volume for any beat directly in the parts row. Also the muted parts are shown as grayed out, and I'm working on a way to do keyboard shortcuts to mute / disable individual parts.

Still plan to release soon as it is ready for release so that new downloaders can have the latest version. It's not a deadline as far as comments or suggestions are concerned however hope that's clear.

Do say if you have any other thoughts or comments at all. Can do another beta when its ready if needed, or can just go straight to the release when it is ready.

Thanks,

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on June 10, 2009, 12:43:48 PM
hi

start a 4/4 with 2 (or4) subbeats
set some swing (normal swing)
add a part set it to 2 beats with the right arrow

-the normal swing is lost and we are send to irregular limpy rythm

boy I hate all those limpy features cant you find an other name than swing for it, put it in a other window were it can be forgotten.
 ;D

-how do you delete a part ??

-I dont want individual volumes per beat!!!
I proposed a simple accent feature

-those tempo indications clutter the display and are not useful ??we already have the tempo dial

-We have two special parts that must be shown better and used more in the program : Bar and beats
those are always present and we treat them almost as regular parts.
why call them part 1 or 2 ?
why not in plain english Bar and N Beat (N is the number of beats )
all other parts are subbeats and should be named accordingly
SubBar N for subBar parts that divide the Bar in N parts (N is the number of beats that divide the bar)
and
SubBeat N/Beat for sub beats parts that divide the Beat (N is the number of beats that divide the beat)

- when we increase the nb of beatson a part with the right arrow it would be great if some counter could count the nb of beats we are setting

All for today

Calude

PS: I prefer betas often


Hi Calude,

Any comments or issues with the beta?

I've decided to take a bit more time over the beta before going  to release - particularly the keyboard shortcuts needed a bit of thought and there were some more minor bugs to fix. Disabling backspace for editing for the backspace for tempo shortcut particularly needed thought.

Implemented some more of your suggestions too - now you can set the volume for any beat directly in the parts row. Also the muted parts are shown as grayed out, and I'm working on a way to do keyboard shortcuts to mute / disable individual parts.

Still plan to release soon as it is ready for release so that new downloaders can have the latest version. It's not a deadline as far as comments or suggestions are concerned however hope that's clear.

Do say if you have any other thoughts or comments at all. Can do another beta when its ready if needed, or can just go straight to the release when it is ready.

Thanks,

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 10, 2009, 02:10:12 PM
Hi Calude,

Quote
start a 4/4 with 2 (or4) subbeats
set some swing (normal swing)
add a part set it to 2 beats with the right arrow

-the normal swing is lost and we are send to irregular limpy rythm
I tried to reproduce this but just got a normal swing here. Do you have "Swing part with most beats only" unselected?

If that's not it then please send me a project. Best to save it using Help | Save as Project for Robertinventor support as that gives me the most complete possible information to help reproduce the bug.

Quote
boy I hate all those limpy features cant you find an other name than swing for it, put it in a other window were it can be forgotten.

The lilt features are now all in the Bounce Preferences window. Lilt would be a better name for it probably instead of Swing. When used in moderation it can help make the rhythm more lively and easier to practice along with, I find it so with my own practice with the metronome at any rate. But as you say, the metronome should be organised so that a user who doesn't need the lilt features shouldn't be bothered by them.

The F1 help for the SWING METRONOME (selected from the main window drop list) in the next upload makes the distinction clearer to the user - as I've made the help for it in two sections.

FIRST SECTION OF THE HELP for a user who wants to practice normal swing with a completely steady beat with no variation at all.

SECOND SECTION OF THE HELP for a user who wants to add a lilt to make the rhythm a bit more lively and less like the normal metornome regular clock like tick.

Quote
-how do you delete a part ??

At present you can only silence a part, not delete it. But this is a feature I can add to the wish list for the future.

I assume the idea is to remove the part and move the later numbered parts up so that e.g. if part 2 is deleted, then the old part 3 becomes part 2, old part 4 becomes part 3 etc.?

Quote
-I dont want individual volumes per beat!!!
I proposed a simple accent feature

Okay. Then I need to think about it some more, as it's not yet obvious to me exactly how to present it to the user without confusion.

So many questions arise when I try to think about the idea. The problem is that the user may have set the volumes by hand. Should the accents feature just erase all user set volumes? Or be added on top of them? If so how? How should it be displayed visually? Will a user find the three stage skipped beat / normal / accents confusing if they just want to skip beats and don't need the accents feature? If so should two separate controls be shown instead, if so how?

There's nothing wrong with the idea itself. The questions are all about: how should I integrate it into the program? At present I have no clear idea yet of how to do it. I expect a solution will turn up eventually.

So anyway that's why it was simpler to just allow user to adjust volumes individually for now. This new volumes adjustment feature can be switched off if you want just like the times adjustment feature - but shouldn't cause any problems for normal use, as it requires the middle button or shift + click which you are unlikely to press by accident.

So I'll keep the new feature, and then see what can be done about accents at a later date.

Quote
-those tempo indications clutter the display and are not useful ??we already have the tempo dial

You can remove them in Metronome Bouncing Ball  - Other Visuals (Ctrl + 225)
UNSELECT Show Allegro, Andante etc (tempo names).
UNSELECT Show Tempi (beats per minute).

Quote
Why not in plain english Bar and N Beat (N is the number of beats )
all other parts are subbeats and should be named accordingly
SubBar N for subBar parts that divide the Bar in N parts (N is the number of beats that divide the bar)
and
SubBeat N/Beat for sub beats parts that divide the Beat (N is the number of beats that divide the beat)

Thanks, good suggestion! I can add this as a feature.

Quote
PS: I prefer betas often

Okay will do you another. Just preparing an upload for today, will post again when it is ready.

Thank for your feedback! This is very useful and eventually we'll converge on something that is satisfactory I'm sure :-).

Robert





Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 10, 2009, 02:17:03 PM
Quote
The lilt features are now all in the Bounce Preferences window.

Sorry, I mean, they are now in the SWING PREFERENCES window (Ctrl + 232)


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 10, 2009, 02:59:53 PM
Here it is, same url as before.

http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe)

It's date from Help | About should be Jun 10th.

Also it should show the version as 3.2 now - there are many significant changes so I have decided it is time for a version number update!

Thanks,

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 10, 2009, 03:19:29 PM
BTW - here is how to use the keyboard shortcut to mute individual parts with the latest beta:

Shift + space to switch the feature on.

Press the number keys 1 2 3 4 etc across top of keyboard to mute or play the correspondingly numbered part in the rhythm. This will work throughout Bounce Metronome Pro.

Shift + space to switch the feature off again to return to normal use of the number keys for text entry.

The one thing I haven't worked out yet is how to indicate visually to the user whether the feature is switched on or not. There's a check box in the bounce preferences window (Ctrl + 220) and you will notice that Shift + space (anywhere in BM Pro) switches this on / off. But probably I should also have it indicated visually in the bouncing balls display too in some simple unobtrusive way.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 10, 2009, 03:23:06 PM
Forgot to say

To mute or play part 10 use 0.
For 11 use q
12 use w
and so on across top row of keyboard up to y for part 16

(this uses the position in the row rather than the letter names, so if you have e.g. a Dvorak keyboard or for users with a keyboard using another script or with accents etc, you still use the first six letters in the top row of the keyboard, whatever they are).


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on June 11, 2009, 12:29:04 AM
hi
frankly for me having direct access to the 10 first parts is enough!!!!
will some body remember all those 16 NAAAAA
also 1 could always be BAR 2 Beat and then the different subbeats

also why not having those shortcuts always ON??
 when you enter text input you are already in a special "text input" window that could triger the num values back ??? in simple word when you put the caret in a text input window it switches back to nb

Calude

BTW - here is how to use the keyboard shortcut to mute individual parts with the latest beta:

Shift + space to switch the feature on.

Press the number keys 1 2 3 4 etc across top of keyboard to mute or play the correspondingly numbered part in the rhythm. This will work throughout Bounce Metronome Pro.

Shift + space to switch the feature off again to return to normal use of the number keys for text entry.

The one thing I haven't worked out yet is how to indicate visually to the user whether the feature is switched on or not. There's a check box in the bounce preferences window (Ctrl + 220) and you will notice that Shift + space (anywhere in BM Pro) switches this on / off. But probably I should also have it indicated visually in the bouncing balls display too in some simple unobtrusive way.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 11, 2009, 01:27:36 PM
Hi Calude,

Here is the fix for your bug:

http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe)
NOTE After you install it, PLEASE GO TO OPTIONS MENU THEN SELECT "Split this window". That's because I found out the previous beta didn't save the user's choice of whether or not to split the windows. Now it does, but is preset to all in one window, so you will need to set it to your preference again.

In this upload, I've also put the text " 4 beats" etc on the part rows much as you suggested. But not done check boxes yet - so you always have it, just until the next upload. Will make check boxes so you can switch it on / off with next upload.

Quote
also why not having those shortcuts always ON??


Done that with this upload for testing. With edit fields then you have to use the Shift + space shortcut but otherwise they should just work.

Quote
frankly for me having direct access to the 10 first parts is enough!!!!
will some body remember all those 16 NAAAAA


Yes, normally as you  say 10 should be plenty for anyone. However, one place where it could be useful to have all 16 is to emulate Theremin's Rhythmicon. In the harmonic metronome I've made a button you can use to do that. Maybe there will be other applications of it too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythmicon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythmicon)

You don't need to remember the letters after 10. Just use the letters of the top row of your keyboard in order, as it is by position. I could do it as a for row 11, b for row 12 etc, but it will be easier if muting / unmuting the parts by touch without looking at the PC keyboard to use consecutive keys on the keyboard.

Quote
also 1 could always be BAR 2 Beat and then the different subbeats


Yes, I'll look into that at some point. Should be possible to do it and a good idea to let the user set different ways of arranging the beats. Needs a little thought. Mostly that's to do with how to present it to the user in the  user interface, and what sort of controls to have to rearrange parts or to duplicate or delete parts and so on - depending on what level of control the user should have to the way the parts are arranged.

So will think it over for a while first.

Robert



Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on June 11, 2009, 02:42:13 PM
hi
thanks
where getting closer. had fun tonight with no  :-\ surprises
BM is really powerful once you get used to it
:)

probably be back only on  monday the W-E will be away YESSSSSS

Calude


[


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 15, 2009, 04:19:25 PM
Okay, hope you had a nice w/e :-)

As often happens the last stages took longer than I expected. Still in final stages of getting the release ready and testing it.

But one bonus - I've come up with a solution to the ACCENTS feature! It was such a simple idea, I don't know why I didn't see it before.

The idea is just to have say two or three volume levels (e.g. accented, unaccented, quieter than usual). Then you right click on the beat to change the  volume level through these one at a time.

User can set the feature up with as many or as few volume levels they like for the accents. Preset to three levels - 33%, 66% and 100% - e.g. quiet, normal, accented.

So for instance if you have three volume levels, a RIGHT CLICK on a QUIET 33% beat makes it NORMAL 66%. Then right click on NORMAL beat makes it ACCENTED 100%. Then right click again to get a QUIET 33% beat. Ctrl + right click to change the levels in reverse order.

This solves all the issues I had with integrating the feature into BM Pro. To take a couple of examples:

1. The right click only changes the volume for one beat. So all the other beats are left unchanged. So that dealt with the issue of what happens to the other beats. If the user has set them up with subtle volume variations, only the accented beat will get varied. But you can use Shift + right click to set all the beats to the new volume level, which means you can easily erase any existing volume variations if you want to.

2. You can skip / play beats with the left button and accent them with the right button so that deals with the potential confusion that I was concerned about between adjustments for skipped and accented beats in the user interface.

I've implemented and tested it too - and in practice too, it works fine.

Other tweaks. For instance with the skipped beats and other controls, - normally buttons get activated when you release the button - because it lets the user change their mind after pressing the button - if you keep the mouse held down, move it off the button and release with the mouse outside the button then it won't get pressed (normally).

But in this context, you want the control to activate immediately when you press the button down (similar to playing a key on a music keyboard). It seems unintuitive for the program to wait for the button release. So that should make it feel more "responsive" when you set beats to silenced or to play and so on.

AS for display, for now I just display the accented beats using the volume level shading that I'd already added for the middle button volume adjustment.

For users who may be used to right click to set the rhythm, for backwards compatibility, I added an option to select what you want the right click to do, preset to accent changing.

Has a fair number of other improvements and additions (including an implementation of a version of Theremin's Rhythmicon).

Anyway - just doing a rebuild of the release again. Will need to test it when it is ready. If it is okay, which it may be, may do a release perhaps tomorrow morning. If not then will do another beta.

More later,

Robert



Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: calude on June 16, 2009, 07:36:47 AM
Hi
yes the w-e  was great thanks

great you implemented the accent I hope there is some visual feedback to show where we are at in the accented, unaccented, quieter than usual sequence
I for my self will implement only 2 (maybe 3) values as this is a metronome and not a drum machine.

looking forward to the nex version/beta as this looks good

calude



Okay, hope you had a nice w/e :-)

As often happens the last stages took longer than I expected. Still in final stages of getting the release ready and testing it.

But one bonus - I've come up with a solution to the ACCENTS feature! It was such a simple idea, I don't know why I didn't see it before.

The idea is just to have say two or three volume levels (e.g. accented, unaccented, quieter than usual). Then you right click on the beat to change the  volume level through these one at a time.

User can set the feature up with as many or as few volume levels they like for the accents. Preset to three levels - 33%, 66% and 100% - e.g. quiet, normal, accented.

So for instance if you have three volume levels, a RIGHT CLICK on a QUIET 33% beat makes it NORMAL 66%. Then right click on NORMAL beat makes it ACCENTED 100%. Then right click again to get a QUIET 33% beat. Ctrl + right click to change the levels in reverse order.

This solves all the issues I had with integrating the feature into BM Pro. To take a couple of examples:

1. The right click only changes the volume for one beat. So all the other beats are left unchanged. So that dealt with the issue of what happens to the other beats. If the user has set them up with subtle volume variations, only the accented beat will get varied. But you can use Shift + right click to set all the beats to the new volume level, which means you can easily erase any existing volume variations if you want to.

2. You can skip / play beats with the left button and accent them with the right button so that deals with the potential confusion that I was concerned about between adjustments for skipped and accented beats in the user interface.

I've implemented and tested it too - and in practice too, it works fine.

Other tweaks. For instance with the skipped beats and other controls, - normally buttons get activated when you release the button - because it lets the user change their mind after pressing the button - if you keep the mouse held down, move it off the button and release with the mouse outside the button then it won't get pressed (normally).

But in this context, you want the control to activate immediately when you press the button down (similar to playing a key on a music keyboard). It seems unintuitive for the program to wait for the button release. So that should make it feel more "responsive" when you set beats to silenced or to play and so on.

AS for display, for now I just display the accented beats using the volume level shading that I'd already added for the middle button volume adjustment.

For users who may be used to right click to set the rhythm, for backwards compatibility, I added an option to select what you want the right click to do, preset to accent changing.

Has a fair number of other improvements and additions (including an implementation of a version of Theremin's Rhythmicon).

Anyway - just doing a rebuild of the release again. Will need to test it when it is ready. If it is okay, which it may be, may do a release perhaps tomorrow morning. If not then will do another beta.

More later,

Robert


Quote


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 17, 2009, 10:26:10 AM
Hi

Yes there's feedback. I've added a shadow effect which makes it easier to see the volume levels for each beat. You can easily distinguish between accented, unaccented and quieter than usual by the amount of shadow (more shadow = quieter note).

Here is a screen shot:
(http://www.bouncemetronome.com/images/swing_with_right_click_accents.png)

Here is the latest beta, same url as before just did an upload:
http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe
 (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_Beta.exe)
Still one or two minor things to fix on my to do list so haven't quite made it for the release.

Robert


Title: Re: discovering chaos interface hate
Post by: Robert Walker on June 22, 2009, 08:18:07 AM
Hi,

Released it now:

http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_w.exe (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Setup_Bounce_Metronome_w.exe)

For what's new see
http://www.bouncemetronome.com/whats_new.htm (http://www.bouncemetronome.com/whats_new.htm)

Be sure to say if you notice anything that needs to be fixed or could be improved, and hope it helps!

Thanks,

Robert