Tuning-Math Digests messages 11325 - 11349

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Message: 11325

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:40:29

Subject: Re: Ptolemy's genera (was: from linear to equal)

From: monz

hi Paul,

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> 
wrote:


> Hi Monz,
> 
> Why is it that you're always creating new webpages and ignoring 
> corrections to your old ones? This seems to be a pattern with you.


believe me, i've been making absurd numbers of corrections.

also, i really try to put a webpage together on the spot if
i have a few hours available when the inspiration strikes.

this last one is a good example of that.  i've done a lot
of research into Ptolemy's tuning treatise, and have still
presented only a half-baked version of my work on it in
my book.  i got the idea to collect this data on a webpage
about Ptolemy, and as the years pass i'll be stuffing it
full of ridiculous amounts of tables, graphs, lattices, 
and long rambling text connecting Ptolemy with the Sumerians
and modern San Diego new-age UFOlogists.  :)  for now,
those two simple little tables are but the seed from which
a large fruitful tree will grow.



> The latest correction you ignored:
> Yahoo! - *
> 
> -Paul


i really am sorry about that.  my computer was infected
with a virus and now i have extra work to do just to
keep webpages working properly and try to remember the
stuff i lost that wasn't backed up.

rest assured, soon enough i'll be asking you (and everyone else)
to please itemize every error and broken link that can
be found on the tonalsoft site.  but i have a huge load
of work to do for about the next month.



-monz


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Message: 11326

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:44:05

Subject: Re: Ptolemy and leapday

From: monz

hi Gene,


--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:

> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> 
> > well, of course neither Ptolemy nor Partch advocated
> > equal-temperament ... but if it's any help, these are
> > three xenharmonic-bridges that i've posited for Ptolemy
> > (in my book):
> > 
> >      monzo            ratio       ~cents
> >   3  5  7 11 23
> > 
> > [-4, 0, 1,-1, 0 >   896 / 891   9.687960643
> > [-6, 1,-1, 0, 0 >  5120 / 5103  5.757802203
> > [ 2,-1, 2,-1, 0 >   441 / 440   3.930158439
> 
> If these three are related, so they define an 11-limit
> planar temperament. If you add 3388/3375 to this, you get
> Graham's mystery, with a 1/29 period; if you add 385/384,
> rodan; if 243/242 an 11-limit hemififths; and if 100/99,
> an 11-limit version of garibaldi (schismic family) which
> I have listed as "garybald". 
> 
> If we add 121/120 we get the 11-limit reduction of what
> Herman dubbed "leapday" in the 13 limit. The TOP tunings
> are not identical but they are close, and I suggest giving
> them the same name, and perhaps "ptolemy" could be that name.
> The 11 and 13 limit temperaments also have a common poptimal
> generator of 19/46, which again supports giving them the 
> same name, and could be another naming idea along the lines
> of 19/84 I suppose. The corresponding fifth is 27/46; 
> 2.39 cents sharp. I figured a Hellenistic Greek might like
> a fifth as a generator, if introduced to temperament; but
> more importantly, this (and "garybald"), is a "brigable"
> temperament since it has a 1 as the first wedgie element.
> The xenharmonic bridge to 5 is |31 -21 1>.



awesome, Gene !!!  thanks !!!  this is exactly the kind of
thing i was hoping for when i put out my bait.  :)

seriously, i'm having so much trouble following almost
everything you post here ... by relating some of your work
to some of my own (which is obviously nice and familiar
to me), it helps me at least get an idea where this train
is going.


-monz


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Message: 11327

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:47:37

Subject: Re: Ptolemy and leapday

From: monz

hi Paul and Gene,

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> 
wrote:

> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > The TOP tunings are not identical but they are close,
> > and I suggest giving them the same name, and perhaps
> > "ptolemy" could be that name.
> 
> Note that Monz is only listing a small percentage of the
> "ptolemy commas" that he found. 


*real* small percentage.

completing these tables is the first thing i'm going to
add to this page, so stay tuned.  (he he)



> You guys are playing real fast and loose! 
> (Don't take that as a complaint.)


i'm having fun at a party i probably shouldn't have
even crashed.

 

-monz


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Message: 11330

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:02:58

Subject: Re: Beethoven's Appassionata comma

From: Graham Breed

jjensen142000 wrote:

> I *almost* got that book today from the music library... I had
> the call number on a slip of paper in my pocket and everything,
> but I was just too busy :(
> 
> How am I ever going to make it through 500+ pages though?

My copy covers Appassionata on p.349, and not in the detail Paul 
describes.  Could he have a different edition?  Amazon doesn't mention it.

Oh, has everybody seen Eytan Agmon's Scarlatti analysis?


                   Graham


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Message: 11332

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:47:01

Subject: Re: Beethoven's Appassionata comma

From: Graham Breed

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Graham Breed <graham@m...> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Oh, has everybody seen Eytan Agmon's Scarlatti analysis?
> 
> 
> No, where is that?

In Theory Only, vol. 11, no. 5, pp.1-8.

It's not as interesting as it looks from the title (Equal Division of 
the Octave in a Scarlatti Sonata) because the equal divisions are only 
12 to the octave :(  But it's an interesting example of an octatonic 
scale and enharmonic modulation from the 18th Century.


                 Graham


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Message: 11333

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:22:21

Subject: Re: 3-d ("planar") temperaments request

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > I'd like to include a table in my paper which summarizes a bunch 
of 
> 7-
> > limit, codimension-1 temperaments.
> 
> Fortunately for you, I now have a new computer which doesn't crash 
> all the time. What's the time frame here?

ASAP.

> > As you'd guess, for each, I want a set of three generators, one 
of 
> > which generates 2:1 all by itself. And then the mappings from 
these 
> > generators to primes.
> 
> The easiest approach is simply to take the Hermite reduction of a 
set 
> of generators for the vals. This would mean if 2 is a generator, it 
> will give it, otherwise a fraction of an octave. If 2, 3, and 5 
will 
> work, it will always give that; and so forth if you wanted a 
complete 
> description of the decision proceedure. This would be easiest for 
me, 
> and it seems to me it has a good claim to be the best choice.

Sure . . . just make sure that you do give a complete description of 
the decision procedure, because I do want one.

> Hermite reduction would result in a criterion you could explain. 
Tell 
> me if that would be acceptable.

Sure -- as long as the explanation ends up being something I can 
understand, then I should be able to explain it in the paper.


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Message: 11334

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:25:03

Subject: Re: 3-d ("planar") temperaments request

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> 
> wrote:

> >  And then the mappings from these 
> > generators to primes.

> By "give the generators", do you mean a TOP tuning plus a mapping?

Right, TOP tuning, and as I said above, the mappings from these 
generators to (tempered) primes. I guess I could figure it out from 
your RMS values, since TOP tuning for the (tempered) primes is easy 
to calculate in these cases, and then I can just solve the system of 
equations given by your mappings. But it would take me some time . . .


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Message: 11335

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:43:48

Subject: Re: monz back to math school

From: Carl Lumma

>i've finally decided to enroll in school again
>to study the math that i'm sorely lacking.
>
>i know that ultimately i want to take a course
>in linear algebra, and that Grassmann algebra in
>particular is something i want to be familiar with.
>
>the college catalog lists trigonometry and calculus 
>as prerequisites for linear algebra, so this is going
>to be a long haul if i can stick with it.  i nearly
>bombed out of algebra II in high school, and never
>studied math again after that ... except the bits
>and pieces i picked up as a tuning theorist.
>
>i feel like i'm missing out on too much new discovery
>here on tuning-math, and want to get up to speed.
>
>i haven't selected any particular classes yet.
>i will certainly have to start with regular algebra
>all over again, and will probably only be able to take
>one course per semester.  advice is appreciated.

Congratulations, monz!!  Best of luck.

-Carl


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Message: 11340

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:47:30

Subject: Re: 43 7-limit planar temperaments

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:
> Below I give the comma, mapping, and TOP generators for Paul's list 
> of 43 planar temperaments. The generator and mapping result from a 
> modified Hermite reduction, the modification being to change signs 
> when needed to ensure the generators are all positive. 

Thanks so much, Gene. If you could describe in common, non-technical 
language the criteria you used to choose the set of generators, I'll 
be able to explain it in my paper.

> 
> 28/27
> [[1, 0, 0, -2], [0, 1, 0, 3], [0, 0, 1, 0]]
> [1193.415676, 1912.390908, 2786.313714]
> 
> 36/35
> [[1, 0, 0, 2], [0, 1, 0, 2], [0, 0, 1, -1]]
> [1195.264647, 1894.449645, 2797.308862]
> 
> 49/48
> [[1, 0, 0, 2], [0, 2, 0, 1], [0, 0, 1, 0]]
> [1203.187309, 953.5033827, 2786.313714]
> 
> 50/49
> [[2, 0, 0, 1], [0, 1, 0, 0], [0, 0, 1, 1]]
> [598.4467109, 1901.955001, 2779.100463]
> 
> 64/63
> [[1, 0, 0, 6], [0, 1, 0, -2], [0, 0, 1, 0]]
> [1197.723683, 1905.562879, 2786.313714]
> 
> 81/80
> [[1, 0, -4, 0], [0, 1, 4, 0], [0, 0, 0, 1]]
> [1201.698520, 1899.262910, 3368.825906]
> 
> 126/125
> [[1, 0, 0, -1], [0, 1, 0, -2], [0, 0, 1, 3]]
> [1199.010636, 1900.386896, 2788.610946]
> 
> 128/125
> [[3, 0, 7, 0], [0, 1, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 1]]
> [399.0200131, 1901.955001, 3368.825906]
> 
> 225/224
> [[1, 0, 0, -5], [0, 1, 0, 2], [0, 0, 1, 2]]
> [1200.493660, 1901.172569, 2785.167472]
> 
> 245/243
> [[1, 0, 0, 0], [0, 1, 1, 2], [0, 0, 2, -1]]
> [1200., 1903.372995, 440.4316973]
> 
> 250/243
> [[1, 2, 3, 0], [0, -3, -5, 0], [0, 0, 0, 1]]
> [1196.905960, 162.3176609, 3368.825906]
> 
> 256/245
> [[1, 0, 0, 4], [0, 1, 0, 0], [0, 0, 2, -1]]
> [1195.228951, 1901.955001, 1398.695873]
> 
> 405/392
> [[1, 0, 1, -1], [0, 1, 0, 2], [0, 0, 2, 1]]
> [1203.269293, 1896.773294, 787.7266785]
> 
> 525/512
> [[1, 0, 0, 9], [0, 1, 0, -1], [0, 0, 1, -2]]
> [1202.406737, 1898.140412, 2780.725442]
> 
> 648/625
> [[4, 0, 3, 0], [0, 1, 1, 0], [0, 0, 0, 1]]
> [299.1603149, 1896.631523, 3368.825906]
> 
> 686/675
> [[1, 0, 2, 1], [0, 1, 0, 1], [0, 0, 3, 2]]
> [1198.513067, 1904.311735, 130.9133777]
> 
> 729/700
> [[1, 0, 0, -2], [0, 1, 0, 6], [0, 0, 1, -2]]
> [1203.706383, 1896.080523, 2794.919668]
> 
> 875/864
> [[1, 0, 0, 5], [0, 1, 0, 3], [0, 0, 1, -3]]
> [1201.121570, 1903.732647, 2783.709509]
> 
> 1029/1000
> [[1, 0, 0, 1], [0, 3, 0, -1], [0, 0, 1, 1]]
> [1202.477948, 632.6758490, 2792.067330]
> 
> 1029/1024
> [[1, 1, 0, 3], [0, 3, 0, -1], [0, 0, 1, 0]]
> [1200.421488, 233.6218235, 2786.313714]
> 
> 1323/1280
> [[1, 0, 0, 4], [0, 1, 1, -1], [0, 0, 2, 1]]
> [1202.764567, 1897.573266, 447.5797863]
> 
> 1728/1715
> [[1, 0, 0, 2], [0, 1, 0, 1], [0, 0, 3, -1]]
> [1199.391895, 1900.991178, 929.2418964]
> 
> 2048/2025
> [[2, 0, 11, 0], [0, 1, -2, 0], [0, 0, 0, 1]]
> [599.5552941, 1903.364685, 3368.825906]
> 
> 2240/2187
> [[1, 0, 0, -6], [0, 1, 0, 7], [0, 0, 1, -1]]
> [1198.134693, 1904.911442, 2781.982606]
> 
> 2401/2400
> [[1, 1, 1, 2], [0, 2, 1, 1], [0, 0, 2, 1]]
> [1200.032113, 350.9868928, 617.6846359]
> 
> 2430/2401
> [[1, 0, 3, 1], [0, 1, 3, 2], [0, 0, -4, -1]]
> [1199.075238, 1900.489288, 1628.631774]
> 
> 3125/3024
> [[1, 0, 0, -4], [0, 1, 0, -3], [0, 0, 1, 5]]
> [1202.454598, 1905.845447, 2780.614314]
> 
> 3125/3072
> [[1, 0, 2, 0], [0, 5, 1, 0], [0, 0, 0, 1]]
> [1201.276744, 380.7957184, 3368.825906]
> 
> 3125/3087
> [[1, 0, 0, 0], [0, 1, 1, 1], [0, 0, 3, 5]]
> [1200., 1903.401919, 293.5973664]
> 
> 3136/3125
> [[1, 0, 0, -3], [0, 1, 0, 0], [0, 0, 2, 5]]
> [1199.738066, 1901.955001, 1393.460953]
> 
> 3645/3584
> [[1, 0, 0, -9], [0, 1, 0, 6], [0, 0, 1, 1]]
> [1201.235997, 1899.995991, 2783.443817]
> 
> 4000/3969
> [[1, 0, 1, 4], [0, 1, 0, -2], [0, 0, 2, 3]]
> [1199.436909, 1902.847479, 792.7846742]
> 
> 4375/4374
> [[1, 0, 0, 1], [0, 1, 0, 7], [0, 0, 1, -4]]
> [1200.016360, 1901.980932, 2786.275726]
> 
> 5103/5000
> [[1, 0, 0, 3], [0, 1, 0, -6], [0, 0, 1, 4]]
> [1201.434720, 1899.681024, 2789.645030]
> 
> 5120/5103
> [[1, 0, 0, 10], [0, 1, 0, -6], [0, 0, 1, 1]]
> [1199.766314, 1902.325384, 2785.771112]
> 
> 5625/5488
> [[1, 0, 1, 0], [0, 1, 1, 2], [0, 0, -3, -4]]
> [1201.715742, 1899.235615, 106.2071570]
> 
> 6144/6125
> [[1, 0, 1, 4], [0, 1, 1, -1], [0, 0, -2, 3]]
> [1199.786928, 1901.617290, 157.2978838]
> 
> 8748/8575
> [[1, 0, 1, 0], [0, 1, 2, 1], [0, 0, -3, 2]]
> [1198.678173, 1899.859955, 736.3383942]
> 
> 10976/10935
> [[1, 0, 2, -1], [0, 1, 2, 3], [0, 0, -3, -1]]
> [1199.758595, 1902.337618, 1139.106063]
> 
> 15625/15552
> [[1, 0, 1, 0], [0, 6, 5, 0], [0, 0, 0, 1]]
> [1200.291038, 317.0693810, 3368.825906]
> 
> 16875/16807
> [[1, 0, 0, 0], [0, 1, 3, 3], [0, 0, -5, -4]]
> [1200., 1901.560426, 583.7891213]
> 
> 19683/19600
> [[1, 0, 0, -2], [0, 2, 0, 9], [0, 0, 1, -1]]
> [1200.256485, 950.7742412, 2786.909253]
> 
> 32805/32768
> [[1, 0, 15, 0], [0, 1, -8, 0], [0, 0, 0, 1]]
> [1200.065120, 1901.851787, 3368.825906]


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Message: 11341

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:49:20

Subject: Re: monz back to math school

From: Paul Erlich

Do it, Monz. Now that you have the motivation, you'll do much better 
than you did in high school. In fact, I have a feeling you'll ace 
these classes . . .

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> hey guys,
> 
> 
> i've finally decided to enroll in school again
> to study the math that i'm sorely lacking.
> 
> i know that ultimately i want to take a course
> in linear algebra, and that Grassmann algebra in
> particular is something i want to be familiar with.
> 
> the college catalog lists trigonometry and calculus 
> as prerequisites for linear algebra, so this is going
> to be a long haul if i can stick with it.  i nearly
> bombed out of algebra II in high school, and never
> studied math again after that ... except the bits
> and pieces i picked up as a tuning theorist.
> 
> i feel like i'm missing out on too much new discovery
> here on tuning-math, and want to get up to speed.
> 
> i haven't selected any particular classes yet.
> i will certainly have to start with regular algebra
> all over again, and will probably only be able to take
> one course per semester.  advice is appreciated.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -monz


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Message: 11343

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:53:08

Subject: Re: Joining Post

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "M Gould" <mark.gould@a...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> some of you know me from tuning list and Make Micro Music. Just to 
say,
> I'll be listening on this list for while.
> 
> Mark G

Hi Mark,

Glad to see you back here!

I'm about to publish a paper which includes a host of what you might 
call "generalized diatonic" scales.

Some time ago I posted these horagrams, which show the scales as 
concentric rings:

Yahoo groups: /tuning_files/files/miracle.gif *
Yahoo groups: /tuning_files/files/pajara.gif *
Yahoo groups: /tuning_files/files/Erlich/sevenlimit.zip *

as well as most of the files in

Yahoo! - *
with "horagram" as the description (these are 5-limit ones).

A draft of the paper, about 75% complete, is here:

Yahoo groups: /tuning/files/perlich/coyotepaper1.doc *

If you have time, I'd appreciate your comments, because I'd like to 
make this paper as clear as possible . . .

Thanks,
Paul


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Message: 11345

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:23:47

Subject: Re: Joining Post

From: Graham Breed

Paul Erlich wrote:

> A draft of the paper, about 75% complete, is here:
> 
> Yahoo groups: /tuning/files/perlich/coyotepaper1.doc *

Hi!  Can I have a copy of this without the lattice diagrams?  They take 
an insane amount of time to draw on my machine.


                     Graham


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Message: 11346

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 06:22:08

Subject: monz back to math school

From: monz

hey guys,


i've finally decided to enroll in school again
to study the math that i'm sorely lacking.

i know that ultimately i want to take a course
in linear algebra, and that Grassmann algebra in
particular is something i want to be familiar with.

the college catalog lists trigonometry and calculus 
as prerequisites for linear algebra, so this is going
to be a long haul if i can stick with it.  i nearly
bombed out of algebra II in high school, and never
studied math again after that ... except the bits
and pieces i picked up as a tuning theorist.

i feel like i'm missing out on too much new discovery
here on tuning-math, and want to get up to speed.

i haven't selected any particular classes yet.
i will certainly have to start with regular algebra
all over again, and will probably only be able to take
one course per semester.  advice is appreciated.  




-monz


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Message: 11347

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:40:48

Subject: Re: Joining Post

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Graham Breed <graham@m...> wrote:
> Paul Erlich wrote:
> 
> > A draft of the paper, about 75% complete, is here:
> > 
> > 
Yahoo groups: /tuning/files/perlich/coyotepaper1.doc *
> 
> Hi!  Can I have a copy of this without the lattice diagrams?  They 
take 
> an insane amount of time to draw on my machine.
> 
> 
>                      Graham

Sure, I'll e-mail it to ya. But I don't have your e-mail address, so 
please e-mail me first -- ASAP!

:)


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